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Synchronicity surrounding schizoprenia/mystical/psychedelic/religious experiences.

You also seem reasonable and thoughtful, but I would ask you to think again here.
You would need to give me a good reason to do so. Unremarkable events and insignificant coincidences are not a good reason. Especially when everything I see around me, not to mention a couple of centuries of scientific investigation by minds far superior to mine, argues against the view of the world that you advocate.
 
Only a very small and insignificant one. Nor do I find your other example at all remarkable.

Coincidences happen. What would be remarkable, and require explanation, would be if they didn't happen. Some people are more primed to notice them and attach significance to them, but that doesn't mean the significance is really there.

I think the real difference between theists/mystics and atheists/skeptics is that the first group see meaning in events, whereas the second group do not. If the universe responds to our thoughts and intentions (or if you like, God answers our prayers) then people who operate within a meaningful paradigm will attract meaningful events into their lives. Those who do not will create a 'no-synchronicity' experience (which in a sense is also a type of synchronicity). Now if you are correct and the universe does not respond to our thoughts then you are missing nothing except a fantasy trip. If you are wrong then you are missing everything. Since the wishes of those who want a 'no-God' experience will be respected, then scientific evidence for spiritual and paranormal phenomena will be hard to come by, which is exactly what we see. But those who want a God experience will see it, in their personal lives and occasionally in group settings, such as healing ministries, etc. This for me is possibly anomalous and may tip the balance in favour of the believer. Why would we be hard wired to see higher meaning in events if there is none? Why do so many people report spiritual and related phenomena? The only answer for the hard skeptic is various forms of delusion, misinterpretation and cheating and I think it inevitably leads to an essentially paranoid and despairing worldview. Lest you think me hard on your kind, I also believe it is essential to be skeptical to a degree and that those such as James Randi have done the world a service in exposing fraudsters and charlatans who would mislead or exploit others. I think Randi just takes it too far though.

One more thing. Religious people report remarkable physical healings on occasion, even occurring right before their eyes. I've heard reliable witness accounts of a few of these and have personally experienced two events that I would describe as miracles, for which one of which I have the physical evidence. Since the straightening of a bent arm or the disappearance of a skin condition can be verified on sight, for those who witnessed the experience there is no doubt about which worldview is the correct one. Those who have not experienced it and wish to hold to a meaningless universe have no option but to dismiss the witnesses out of hand, despite the fact that many of them are, like you and I, reasonable, thoughtful people.
 
Yes and I agree this is possibly what the bird was doing. It fits very well in fact. But that has no bearing on whether or not it was a genuine synchronicity, in other words, why the timing was so exquisite. I never stated that beyond the synchronicity anything mystical was going on.

Good point. It isn't so much the impossibility of an event that creates a feeling of synchronicity, but the collision of meaning.

So, for example: I have been learning about Hellenistic philosophers and struggling with all the strange names. While in the library to pick up a book on campfire cooking, I happen to spot a book on tape about Athens which includes a pronunciation guide and listing of ancient philosophers.

Neither of these events is miraculous or particularly noteworthy - it's the combination which strikes me as significant, as well as the time proximity. The feeling is very much one of a hidden, guiding hand.

Of course, such coincidences can pile up remarkably. Here is one I remember reading about (a different version, making it likely to be completely bogus):

When the late Arthur Koestler published The Roots of Coincidence, a study of curious synchronicities in time and place, he was bombarded by letters from people who had had similar experiences.

The most consistently coincidental of all probably came from Anthony S. Clancy of Dublin, who was born on the seventh day of the seventh month of the seventh year of the century, which also happened to be the seventh day of the week. “I was the seventh child of a seventh child,” he wrote, “and I have seven brothers; that makes seven sevens.”

On his twenty-seventh birthday, according to Clancy, he went to the track. The seventh numbered horse in the seventh race was named Seventh Heaven, and was handicapped seven stone. The odds against Seventh Heaven were seven-to-one, but Clancy bet seven shillings anyway.

Seventh Heaven finished seventh.
 
I think the real difference between theists/mystics and atheists/skeptics is that the first group see meaning in events, whereas the second group do not. If the universe responds to our thoughts and intentions (or if you like, God answers our prayers) then people who operate within a meaningful paradigm will attract meaningful events into their lives. Those who do not will create a 'no-synchronicity' experience (which in a sense is also a type of synchronicity). Now if you are correct and the universe does not respond to our thoughts then you are missing nothing except a fantasy trip. If you are wrong then you are missing everything. Since the wishes of those who want a 'no-God' experience will be respected, then scientific evidence for spiritual and paranormal phenomena will be hard to come by, which is exactly what we see. But those who want a God experience will see it, in their personal lives and occasionally in group settings, such as healing ministries, etc. This for me is possibly anomalous and may tip the balance in favour of the believer.
Except that there is not a smidgen of evidence that any of this is true. And there would be, if it was.

When insurance companies start offering believers lower life insurance because they have higher life expectances due to healing ministries/the power of prayer let me know. Until then I'll stick to what scientific investigations of such claims tell me, which is that they are bogus.

Why would we be hard wired to see higher meaning in events if there is none?
Because the human brain is hard wired to look for patterns and attach significance to those patterns. Because false positives are not as potentially fatal as false negatives. Our brains evolved to be more likely to mistake noise for signal than signal for noise for very good reasons.

Why do so many people report spiritual and related phenomena? The only answer for the hard skeptic is various forms of delusion, misinterpretation and cheating and I think it inevitably leads to an essentially paranoid and despairing worldview.
It's not paranoid or despairing to recognise that we have built in cognitive biases which we need to allow for when determining whether patterns we think we see are really there. It's why the scientific method had to be invented, and the bounty from that is still being reaped.

Lest you think me hard on your kind, I also believe it is essential to be skeptical to a degree and that those such as James Randi have done the world a service in exposing fraudsters and charlatans who would mislead or exploit others. I think Randi just takes it too far though.
He takes it as far as necessary to expose the frauds, the mistaken and the deluded. The fact that there is nothing left is hardly his fault.

One more thing. Religious people report remarkable physical healings on occasion, even occurring right before their eyes. I've heard reliable witness accounts of a few of these and have personally experienced two events that I would describe as miracles, for which one of which I have the physical evidence. Since the straightening of a bent arm or the disappearance of a skin condition can be verified on sight, for those who witnessed the experience there is no doubt about which worldview is the correct one. Those who have not experienced it and wish to hold to a meaningless universe have no option but to dismiss the witnesses out of hand, despite the fact that many of them are, like you and I, reasonable, thoughtful people.
Illnesses sometimes go into spontaneous remission, especially under circumstances when powerful suggestion is at work. The reasons why are not fully understood, but good progress is being made. Such cases are not evidence for your worldview, no matter how compelling individuals may find particular instances.
 
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You would need to give me a good reason to do so. Unremarkable events and insignificant coincidences are not a good reason. Especially when everything I see around me, not to mention a couple of centuries of scientific investigation by minds far superior to mine, argues against the view of the world that you advocate.
No it does not. It argues against superstition, sloppy thinking and fundamentalism.

On giving you a good reason, I have a feeling that Carl Sagan's dictum that 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence' can be taken too far. For some people, no amount of evidence will ever be enough.

My first example of synchronicity was criticised for the external event only having enough links with my internal state. But the second one has several links:

1. The temporal proximity between my reading the passage and being told the related experience of my parents - a few hours.
2. The geographical location being the same.
3. My parents staying at the same hotel as the Pecks (there are other places to stay).
4. My parents being around the same age as the Pecks.
5. Both couples visiting the stones on Easter Sunday.
6. The significance of stones for Easter.
7. The woman in each case being the significant party.
8. Both couples finding the same church (which was 15 miles from Callanish).
9. My ongoing internal journey towards Christian faith being linked to the Christian message in the experience.
10. My father telling me the story almost as soon as I opened the door, as if to bring it to my attention.
11. Its relationship to three other synchronous experiences I had immediately after finishing books by M. Scott Peck, taking place between Christmas and Easter.
12. Many more similar coincidences, too many to list in fact.

Isn't that enough evidence for you to at least consider the possibility that synchronicity is real? It isn't just Easter eggs that have shells. Some people surround themselves in a safe little shell of either belief or non-belief. When they're ready to come out of it, all that's needed is a little tap, and this experience was the final proof for me that it was worth coming out of my own shell.
 
Isn't that enough evidence for you to at least consider the possibility that synchronicity is real?

I'm sorry but no, it really isn't. Such coincidences are entirely to be expected, especially when someone is primed to look for them.

It isn't just Easter eggs that have shells. Some people surround themselves in a safe little shell of either belief or non-belief. When they're ready to come out of it, all that's needed is a little tap, and this experience was the final proof for me that it was worth coming out of my own shell.
I think your shell was far thinner than it should have been, given what the law of large numbers tells us about coincidences and how often they can reasonably be expected to occur.
 
Isn't that enough evidence for you to at least consider the possibility that synchronicity is real?

I cut this out because I don't think anyone is disputing that synchronicity is real. Just like Deja Vu is real. Synchronicity describes "meaningful coincidence" and that's a feeling most of us have had. So it's at least as real as "anger" or "boredom."

What may not be "real" is what the feeling indicates, and this is rather easy to check. How? By artificially relating random mental input to happenstance. I might, for example, flip a bible open and read a few lines in the morning and try to see how that "informs" the rest of my day. It's not hard - a la the horoscope in the newspaper - to find meaning. Numerology is another. The bible code a third.

I find it quite easy to find coincidences when I seek them out. This ruins the phenomenon by revealing just how pervasively networked - by way of my ability to make links - the world around me is. If coincidences are so easily discovered in this way, can they be special?

ETA: I see that synchronicity has a few different meanings, some of which may be rejected by skeptics, if only on the basis they are unproven. Wiki gives this as (one of) Jung's definitions: Synchronicity is a concept, first explained by psychiatrist Carl Jung, which holds that events are "meaningful coincidences" if they occur with no causal relationship, yet seem to be meaningfully related.

In that, the "seem to be" is why I don't think we should dispute synchronicity happens. Certainly some coincidences do "seem to be" meaningful.
 
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I cut this out because I don't think anyone is disputing that synchronicity is real. Just like Deja Vu is real. Synchronicity describes "meaningful coincidence" and that's a feeling most of us have had. So it's at least as real as "anger" or "boredom."
Yes, when I say blue triangle's example doesn't convince me that synchronicity is real I don't mean that the feeling that the coincidence is meaningful isn't real, I just mean I don't think it's warranted.

When someone who believes in astrology assures me that the people he knows are far more like their signs predict than would be expected by chance I don't doubt that he's describing his perceptions accurately, and that he's truly convinced that the patterns and correlations he thinks he sees are really there. But by applying the scientific method we can establish that they aren't really there. Likewise there is good reason to doubt that the meaning the believer in synchronicity thinks he sees is really there.
 
Except that there is not a smidgen of evidence that any of this is true. And there would be, if it was.
Stating that there is no evidence means nothing if the evidence is only ever given when nobody else is looking! Science operates under certain reasonable assumptions, one of them being that effects should be repeatable. Synchronicities are not repeatable.

When insurance companies start offering believers lower life insurance because they have higher life expectances due to healing ministries/the power of prayer let me know. Until then I'll stick to what scientific investigations of such claims tell me, which is that they are bogus.
No, it does not say that. It just hasn't detected them, although even that is arguable. Much high quality psi research has been done, but it generally cannot find a mainstream outlet. The reason for that is because we are not simply dealing with some scientific research, we are dealing with our deepest beliefs about reality. And so the stakes are very, very high.


Because the human brain is hard wired to look for patterns and attach significance to those patterns. Because false positives are not as potentially fatal as false negatives. Our brains evolved to be more likely to mistake noise for signal than signal for noise for very good reasons.
There is much to argue with here. For one thing, patterns are not the same as meaning. Yes, it can be fatal to ignore the footsteps of the approaching lion, but people become good at determining what is real and what is not, including spiritual people. And spiritual experiences such as synchronicities often occur many times before people become convinced they are real phenomena. Another thing: evolution has selected for survival, not truth, and if our brains are a reflection of that process then we may very well be hard-wired to hold to certain views and incapable of breaking out of it without some assistance, in which case we really do need the grace of God.

It's not paranoid or despairing to recognise that we have built in cognitive biases which we need to allow for when determining whether patterns we think we see are really there. It's why the scientific method had to be invented, and the bounty from that is still being reaped.
Science and spirituality are not at war here, despite surface appearances. Science and superstition are, science and fundamentalism are, science and charlatanism are, and in each case I support science. I don't support science because of what I've found in scientific textbooks, or what scientists or others have said to me, although all these were taken into account. I support science on the evidence of my own life, because the processes I use myself (and others do too) to test the assertions of others and the nature of physical are the methods science uses. In fact scientific instruments are really just extentions of our senses and the processes of induction and deduction are formalistions of our thought processes. But it's those very processes that also led me to abandon the scientific naturalism of my youth and embrace a spiritual worldview.

He takes it as far as necessary to expose the frauds, the mistaken and the deluded. The fact that there is nothing left is hardly his fault.
He's also admitted now to less-than honest dealings with some of his pponents. See 'Debunking the King of Debunkers'.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...andi-debunking-the-king-of-the-debunkers.html

Illnesses sometimes go into spontaneous remission, especially under circumstances when powerful suggestion is at work. The reasons why are not fully understood, but good progress is being made. Such cases are not evidence for your worldview, no matter how compelling individuals may find particular instances.

I'm talking about phenomena such as the leg of a crippled woman growing an inch in front of people's eyes during a healing, so that she can now walk normally, having limped since contracting polio in her childhood. They either saw that or they did not. It either grew or it did not. I'm talking about sheets of diseased skin falling off a person during a healing, leaving fresh skin underneath. These and many similar miracles have been witnessed by many thousands of people.
 
I think the real difference between theists/mystics and atheists/skeptics is that the first group see meaning in events, whereas the second group do not.

I think it's more like, theists/mystics see meaning that's all about them personally, while others see an outer world that is going about its business.

If I encountered the crow incident, rather than think the crow (or some entity using the crow) was communicating with me, I'd think I had a rare chance to witness some unusual behavior of wildlife outside of my emotional sphere. Rather than thinking my concerns are the center of the universe, I want to learn about the universe and what goes on in it without trying to add egotistical bias.

Why would we be hard wired to see higher meaning in events if there is none?

I thought that was pretty well known. People who see connections in things survive better, like noticing what indicates a tiger is on the prowl or that sickness comes after eating certain berries. It's so important that false positives are better than false negatives, and due to natural variation in the species, some people are just awash in false positives.
 
When someone who believes in astrology assures me that the people he knows are far more like their signs predict than would be expected by chance I don't doubt that he's describing his perceptions accurately, and that he's truly convinced that the patterns and correlations he thinks he sees are really there. But by applying the scientific method we can establish that they aren't really there. Likewise there is good reason to doubt that the meaning the believer in synchronicity thinks he sees is really there.

You mentioned earlier that such pattern forming (biased toward the noise side) is evolutionarily advantageous. I'm familiar with the argument, and although not completely convinced, I wonder if there might be a second part to it.

Presume the pattern-forming instinct is deeply wired in - along the lines of me being unable to resist ("not see") that a particular presentation of lines and colors on my desk is a wooden box. The pattern comes to mind, not as a pattern, but fully formed as "wooden box."

I'm supposing synchronicity (the feeling) follows similar rules, and I think it does because of the way it surprises us - we notice it "fully formed." But the second part I want to point out almost immediately follows, but seems to require cognitive effort - the dismissal of the significance, a further, thoughtful analysis which detects noise the pattern-forming part missed. I think of it as the "cool story bro" response.

Interestingly, while the first seems largely outside of my control, the second can be trained and applied in what we might call the critical thinking habit.

To take it further afield, I think the way we sculpt our environments is to reduce the need for the first (at least for survival) and use the second more often. In some situations, the second, being slower, still kills us.

There is also a practical application here. In magic, I am often trying to direct attention (misdirection) in the service of some illusion. One way to do this is to shift the cognitive load away from something familiar (which may be gimmicked) and toward something else, by breaking some pattern. For example, the hand that doesn't have the coin may intentionally "look odd" simply to draw attention to it before revealing it's empty, while the hand with the concealed coin looks normal and can thereby be dismissed.
 
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One thing that strikes me is just how trivial the synchronicities really are; it just seems to me that an all-encompassing and objective reality-behind-the-reality could do better by way of revelation than a few measly dreams and subjective perceptions given only to folks who want to see it.

Some people look at everything and see what they're looking for, look through a telescope at the universe and intone "the heavens proclaim the glory of god"; some people use a smaller telescope and see them in the actions of a bird that crosses their path. There doesn't seem to be any useful (and testable) in-between because they're really the same thing- an attachment of significance by people searching for it, not the same thing as a "there" there.
 
I'm talking about phenomena such as the leg of a crippled woman growing an inch in front of people's eyes during a healing, so that she can now walk normally, having limped since contracting polio in her childhood. They either saw that or they did not. It either grew or it did not. I'm talking about sheets of diseased skin falling off a person during a healing, leaving fresh skin underneath. These and many similar miracles have been witnessed by many thousands of people.
David Copperfield made the statue of liberty disappear, and it was witnessed by hundreds in person and thousands on television. I'd rather see a leg grow an inch while in front of one xray machine than a thousand believers. But charlatans have all kinds of excuses to avoid that, not because spiritual healings are real, but because they need to protect the illusion.
 
I'm sorry but no, it really isn't. Such coincidences are entirely to be expected, especially when someone is primed to look for them.
I wasn't, not consciously at least. I was an atheist for 27 years and very skeptical about any and all unusual phenomena. I changed because of the evidence presented to me in my life and internally. I can't prove any of it to you. But we should have some confidence in the evidence of our senses, especially when similar events are repeated (there's your replicability, although only for the person concerned) and form a meaningful pattern in our lives. The idea of meaning is crucial here. Meaning is very personal of course, but not completely and can be confirmed by others. It is also claimed to be entirely abstract but at a fundamental level meaning is information and information takes energy to impart. In fact, Japanese scientists have converted information directly into energy. So implying meaning is entirely subjective or unreal is wrong on two counts.

I think your shell was far thinner than it should have been, given what the law of large numbers tells us about coincidences and how often they can reasonably be expected to occur.
It was thin only because it was ready to crack!
 
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I'm talking about phenomena such as the leg of a crippled woman growing an inch in front of people's eyes during a healing, so that she can now walk normally, having limped since contracting polio in her childhood. They either saw that or they did not. It either grew or it did not. I'm talking about sheets of diseased skin falling off a person during a healing, leaving fresh skin underneath. These and many similar miracles have been witnessed by many thousands of people.


I was involved with people who believed such things were possible. They had stories of things they had witnessed. I wanted to know details out of interest, and the stories started to get less impressive, then more vague and then the subject was changed. The more honest admitted that they had not personally witnessed these things (teleportation and psychic healing for example) but had believed those who said they had.

That said, it seems to me that the mental aspects (telepathy and clairvoyance and ghosts) are more common and more possible. While I think physical "miracles" are possible, they will be extremely rare, and shrouded in ambiguity so as to hide the fact that a law of physics was broken.

There are many frauds and charlatans out there. I did not need anyone to show that Uri Geller was a trickster and not a person with "powers". It just is not way the Universe as we know it works.

The videos that show such miracles are "doctored", and there are crucial gaps in others that are supposed to show "full coverage".

I tend to believe in coincidences that are rather strange, since I have had a lot of them.
 
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David Copperfield made the statue of liberty disappear, and it was witnessed by hundreds in person and thousands on television.

Nice trick. He had the whole "building/room" revolve to a different skyline without the statue in it. Very quietly and smoothly.
 
I cut this out because I don't think anyone is disputing that synchronicity is real. Just like Deja Vu is real. Synchronicity describes "meaningful coincidence" and that's a feeling most of us have had. So it's at least as real as "anger" or "boredom."

What may not be "real" is what the feeling indicates, and this is rather easy to check. How? By artificially relating random mental input to happenstance. I might, for example, flip a bible open and read a few lines in the morning and try to see how that "informs" the rest of my day. It's not hard - a la the horoscope in the newspaper - to find meaning. Numerology is another. The bible code a third.

I find it quite easy to find coincidences when I seek them out. This ruins the phenomenon by revealing just how pervasively networked - by way of my ability to make links - the world around me is. If coincidences are so easily discovered in this way, can they be special?

ETA: I see that synchronicity has a few different meanings, some of which may be rejected by skeptics, if only on the basis they are unproven. Wiki gives this as (one of) Jung's definitions: Synchronicity is a concept, first explained by psychiatrist Carl Jung, which holds that events are "meaningful coincidences" if they occur with no causal relationship, yet seem to be meaningfully related.

In that, the "seem to be" is why I don't think we should dispute synchronicity happens. Certainly some coincidences do "seem to be" meaningful.

Meaningful coincidences either happen or they do not. In other words, either the universe responds to our thoughts or it does not and we are mistaken. So I think the term synchronicity should be reserved for actual or claimed occurrences of the phenomenon. If it's not synchronicity it's simply a cognitive error of some kind.

People who go looking for coincidences find nothing except the random noise of pseudo-connections we can all find all the time. The real music is heard when we are living our lives. Synchronicity knocks on the door of our awareness. If we answer it we let in a new level of meaning in our lives.

As I stated before, perhaps the reason why it is so difficult to show evidence of synchronicity is precisely because the universe responds to our thoughts. Those who believe it is not real, will find no evidence for it. So what's the difference between that universe and a universe that is blindly indifferent to us? The testimony of people who have experienced synchronicities, miracles, healing and other miracles, visions, telepathy, precognitive dreams, OBEs, NDEs and other reported phenomena. In a supposedly rational age, the reports keep on coming.

There may also be a basis for the beginnings of an understanding of some of these phenomena in modern physics, although that then raises many questions about the nature of reality. I suspect it may never be fully understood though, since science deals with the realm of the physical and there may indeed be a 'non-physical' aspect to be considered here, a realm from where the physical is projected.
 
Meaningful coincidences either happen or they do not. In other words, either the universe responds to our thoughts or it does not and we are mistaken. So I think the term synchronicity should be reserved for actual or claimed occurrences of the phenomenon. If it's not synchronicity it's simply a cognitive error of some kind.

People who go looking for coincidences find nothing except the random noise of pseudo-connections we can all find all the time. The real music is heard when we are living our lives. Synchronicity knocks on the door of our awareness. If we answer it we let in a new level of meaning in our lives.

As I stated before, perhaps the reason why it is so difficult to show evidence of synchronicity is precisely because the universe responds to our thoughts. Those who believe it is not real, will find no evidence for it. So what's the difference between that universe and a universe that is blindly indifferent to us? The testimony of people who have experienced synchronicities, miracles, healing and other miracles, visions, telepathy, precognitive dreams, OBEs, NDEs and other reported phenomena. In a supposedly rational age, the reports keep on coming.

There may also be a basis for the beginnings of an understanding of some of these phenomena in modern physics, although that then raises many questions about the nature of reality. I suspect it may never be fully understood though, since science deals with the realm of the physical and there may indeed be a 'non-physical' aspect to be considered here, a realm from where the physical is projected.

:notm
 
Eh? What did they do? Burn a newspaper? :confused:

No, they invoked Maxwell's demon, from a thought experment by the physicist James Clerk Maxwell. He imagined a demon that could open a door separating two chambers filled with gas. It only let faster gas molecules pass through to one side, thereby increasing the temperature of that side and decreasing the temperature of the other side. This breaks the second law of thermodynamics because it decreases the entropy of the universe, which should always increase after every interaction.

The scientists created a set up that was effectively the same, and showed that the potential energy of a polystyrene ball could be increased, merely by utilising information about the experiment. So information was converted into energy.https://www.technologyreview.com/s/420996/physicists-convert-information-into-energy/
 

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