Study quashes vaccine anxiety

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I would conclude that the mutation discussed is a major cause of the disease. 70-80% is quite high. What I wonder is what was given as the cause for the other 20-30% I am somewhat suspicious that other groups only got about 35% on their studies, though. This definitely points to something else at work.

However, I see no mechanism for vaccinations to trigger said disease. Ant-vaxxers make claims, bold claims, no less, without a shred of real evidence.

I think this is where we must take our stand. We're learning new things every day that are wonderous and miraculous. I have yet to see a scientific advance from the anti-vaxx crowd. Could be because there's no science involved.....ya think?


It is a good study, Flange. I hadn't heard of such nonsense before coming to these boards, but I am now a staunch anti-anti-vaxxer. Eos opened my eyes, as she was the first here who really went at them that I saw. Just as Rolfe/Donks/MRC_Hans opened my eyes to the ..erm...'wonders'...of homeopathy. Stick around, there's more than enough woo to shred.
 
However, I see no mechanism for vaccinations to trigger said disease. Ant-vaxxers make claims, bold claims, no less, without a shred of real evidence.
I'm faint-but-pursuing here, and maybe hoping for others to do the work for me, but as I read the original study report, the idea was that the disease is triggered by fevers in those who are genetically susceptible. Vaccination is one of the things that might cause a bit of a fever and so might in some cases be the trigger for the disease.

What I'm still not clear about is whether it's possible for any child with the genetic abnormality to escape the triggering process completely, and fail to develop the disease. Eos says it isn't, but I just haven't so far managed to find out where she's getting that information from.

Rolfe.
 
What I'm still not clear about is whether it's possible for any child with the genetic abnormality to escape the triggering process completely, and fail to develop the disease. Eos says it isn't, but I just haven't so far managed to find out where she's getting that information from.

Rolfe.

Fair point. Do we know the prevalence of SCN1A mutations in the general non-epileptic population? Knowing that those with Dravet's have a high likelihood of having the mutation does not imply it always is expressed. Is it possible to have the mutation and never develop epilepsy?
The other puzzle is why there is a familial history of epilepsy when most of the cases seem to have a new de-novo mutation.
I cannot get a feel for how common Dravet's syndrome is in general as a cause of childhood-onset epilepsy- my impression is that it is quite rare.
 
Do you think the person who posted it will be banned from the Mothering forums for linking to a forum that dares question their closely held beliefs? Dissent is absolutely not allowed in their "commune".

No, it was linked as an example of "the snoopers" and referred to quite dishonestly as "deriding randy's". Apparently they are also illiterate and unable to spell, as well as ignorant of science.

In fact, the end of the thread has swapped over to referring to the "ignorant" people here, the "stupidity", etc, and how in 20 years vaccinations will be thought of the same way that global warming is today... (heee)
 
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Eosine, did the researchers even ask if the afflicted children developed fevers after being vaccinated?

It's hard to get accurate information on VAERS. They rely on the parent's word, and as we know, anecdotes aren't as useful as collection of data with exact dates, times, and situations in lab conditions where accuracy is a must and documented. The study only looked at the children's genetics and the fact that they did have seizures (epilepsy) and had vaccination. All we know for sure are that 100% of the studied children have had vaccinations, 100% of the children have seizures, and 80% have Dravet's. The other 20% may have had such high fevers that the fevers alone caused one time seizures, or whatever. I haven't read the study, only the article.

I think this article will help to outline what I've been trying to explain.
This inherited epilepsy syndrome has a broad spectrum of phenotypes, ranging from simple febrile seizures to severe myoclonic epilepsy of infancy. In a single family with GEFS+, individuals carrying the same SCN1A mutation can be asymptomatic or have severe epilepsy with major neurologic defects, suggesting that other modifying factors contribute to the severity of the disease.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1176321

In all the information on Dravet's, the children with the mutation that have combinations that aren't just carrier combination (carriers don't get Dravet's because they just carry some of the genes and another set that spares them from the disease), all Dravet's gene sets get the disease, all get seizures, all have epilepsy by one year of age. The carriers just have a higher chance of having some other kind of epilepsy.

It's like eye color. I carry the genes for blue or hazel eyes, so I am Hazel eyed (BH), but I didn't get the gene combination to have blue eyes (BB). My personal gene combination caused me to have hazel eyes. One of my children has hazel, and two have blue. For my children to have blue eyes, I married someone with hazel eyes (BH +BH). When you do the genetic charting, our children had 25% chance of being born with blue eyes. If I had married someone with blue eyes, then my children would have had an even higher chance of being born with blue eyes (BB + BH, 50% chance of being blue eyed, 50% chance of having Hazel).

The children with blue eyes inherited gene combinations from both parents in order to get the blue, but not the combination to get hazel. The child with hazel eyes got the gene combination for hazel, but not for blue. If I had married someone with brown eyes, then none of my chilren would have had blue eyes. They would have had brown or hazel eyes depending on what genes the brown eyed partner had.

When carriers of a disease get together, then the chances of the child getting the Dravet gene combination is even higher. The children with the Dravet's genes combinations always get Dravet's (DD), and always gets epilepsy/seizures before age 1. Looking at the child's own inherited genetics, you can see it inherited the genes to get Dravet's. If the child didn't have Dravet's he may carry one of the genes/gene combinations necessary for their own future to get Dravet's. Think of the Dravet's child like a blue eyed child...they must have the "blue blue" set, and if they do, then they have the expression no matter what. If the child were a hazel eyed child (BH), then the H causes them to not have blue eyes. A Dravet's child is DD. The parents were only DC.

This is very simplified, but I hope it explains it.

The study shows that 80% of the children would have gotten seizures no matter if they were vaccinated or not because they carry the genetics for having Dravet's.
 
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No, it was linked as an example of "the snoopers" and referred to quite dishonestly as "deriding randy's". Apparently they are also illiterate and unable to spell, as well as ignorant of science.

In fact, the end of the thread has swapped over to referring to the "ignorant" people here, the "stupidity", etc, and how in 20 years vaccinations will be thought of the same way that global warming is today... (heee)


I only linked the site because it was quite predictable in the peoples' reactions to the news. I could go on any anti-vax site and find the same. They really shouldn't feel singled out, since I know they are just typically anti-vax. In fact, I know they limit their membership to antivax, so I knew a thread on this topic would be easy to pinpoint. If they had a mixture of views on the subject, then it would have been harder to verify my predictions. Rather than sift through a more open site, it's just easier to go to the great big huge red flag sticking out of the sea of the internet.

They must have a snooper here too, that linked the site. Maybe I'll meander back over to find out who our snooper was. Snooper cool!

Hmm, can't find the reference to this thread anymore. The mods may have wiped it out, which really wouldn't surprise me.


But, there is stuff on Charlie Sheen. Sheen sees a chiro, and he and the chiro are antivax. No surprise there. Just the usual misinformed chiro spreading ignorance around. At least his child's mother got to see them both for the nutters they are.

Oh, and a thread on MMR and that preservative... http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=441846

Hmm, some folks will just never learn that MMR is a live vaccine, and cannot contain the preservative. It just shows, blatantly, what sources cannot be trusted for any sort of information. In fact a person in thread, the thread that links the morbidly horrible article, ironically states that they'd rather get misinformation from the net rather than from newspapers that usually have a little weeny bit more expected fact checking.

Ack, somebody come over here and whack me off that antivax site, I just read where someone posted that nobody should worry about Tetanus because "the disease can only thrive where there is very little or no oxygen and children have extremely effective circulatory systems that carry all the oxygen a wound would typically need to prevent it. "

:hb:

Don't dare refute that though. You'll get booted for being provax.
 
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Rolfe:
Surely every kid who has ever grown up has had a fever at one time or another? In fact, one might argue that having been vaccinated might make one LESS susecptible to fevers... but that's a different topic. If it wasn't the vaccine, then would the first flu encountered trigger the disease? Sounds like a damned if you do/damned if you don't scenario.


Erm. I nominate Pauly as the 'snooper'.

And I invite him/her/it to post their evidence, as I have asked before. I am beginning to wonder if any such hard evidence exists...
 
It's against the Mothering terms of sevice to link to any other message board. I'm surprised the link was up as long as it was. The poster was Momtezuma whateverherlastnameis - scanning through a few threads, she certainly seems to consider herself some kind of expert on nutrition and health.
 
The poster must have made an exception for a bit, to point out us evil child poisoners. She has an antivax book if anyone wants to pm her on it, as long as you are appearing antivax, that is. She's a homeopath type, and is the resident expert on spreading conspiracy theories about "evil big pharma". She really hated my JREF Wiki post on how vaccinations actually work. All I posted was how they work. It made her mad still. I believe that is our snooper.

I almost died laughing when I read the name of another mod "puppyfluffer" :eye-poppi :blush: :covereyes

Many of the mods aren't "westernized" enough yet to know what "fluffer" means :redface1
 
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Hey..whatever they do in their spare time....

Not that there's anything WRONG with that...
 
In all the information on Dravet's, the children with the mutation that have combinations that aren't just carrier combination (carriers don't get Dravet's because they just carry some of the genes and another set that spares them from the disease), all Dravet's gene sets get the disease, all get seizures, all have epilepsy by one year of age.
Rolfe:
Surely every kid who has ever grown up has had a fever at one time or another? In fact, one might argue that having been vaccinated might make one LESS susecptible to fevers... but that's a different topic. If it wasn't the vaccine, then would the first flu encountered trigger the disease? Sounds like a damned if you do/damned if you don't scenario.
Clarsct, I'm inclined to agree with you. What you say seems very probable. However, I'm still looking for the evidence. We can only know this if people have looked for Dravet's genetics among normal children, and found none. If family studies have shown that all children with the genes inevitably get the disease.

Eos has once more posted that this is the case, but still not shown any reference.

Eos, I know how genetics works. The other thing I know about it is that for some conditions the possession of the genes does not inevitably lead to the development of the disease. Like I said, it's called incomplete expression or incomplete penetrance or something like that. There are lots of genetic diseases in this category, and you can't assume that any given disease isn't, without the evidence.

Again, I think it's probable that you're actually right, but it's such an important point that I want to see the actual evidence from people who have actually looked, rather than just unsupported statements.

Rolfe.
 
The literature I posted describes not only my watered down explanation in more technical terms, but also that nobody escapes the disease when they have that gene combination. It also describes how some of the genes that are carried (before landing in the Dravet's combination in the offspring) affect the carriers.

I do know you know all of this better than I, so how many more links can I post? If this is not demonstrated in the links as I read them, then please show me where I've failed to understand something, since I do feel all the references are posted, quoted, and then some.

I don't see any evidence of incomplete expressions mentioned anywhere in the links, not a single case.

If you feel the references aren't adequate, then please feel free to take advantage of your better resources to either refute or verify what the other literature presents. Especially if there is a discussion in layman's terms to quote here. In other words...Help!
 
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Flange Desire wrote,

***Fears that immunisations can cause brain damage and seizures in healthy children have been quashed in a landmark study by Melbourne researchers.***

The author of the article you linked to might want to rephrase her summation, and you might want to reconsider quoting it as the summation of your comments on the issue.

The study deals with a very specific condition, namely, to quote, “a severe form of childhood epilepsy called Dravet's syndrome”.

Any true critical thinker will realize immediately that the focus of this particular study does not encompass any and all forms of “brain damage and seizures in healthy children”, caused by vaccines or not, so the blanket declaration issued by the author (and quoted by you) is highly inaccurate and potentially misleading (for those lacking critical thinking and/or reading comprehension skills and/or the attention span required to read past the headline or opening paragraph, at least.)

I’m rather disappointed that so few here have raised (noticed?) this obvious point, but instead opted to ignore it and ridicule others for their supposed ignorance, bias, and lack of critical thinking. JMHO. It remains to be seen if I will be banished/attacked for expressing a “discordant” perspective, as a few have suggested occurs elsewhere, among the so-called “nutters” ;)

Certain vaccines are known to have the potential to rarely cause seizures and/or brain damage in healthy children, including children with no known genetic predisposition to or subsequent manifestation of such activity.
Pertussis (“whooping cough“) containing vaccines are the best documented in this respect, and while the currently used acellular pertussis component of the DTaP vaccine is far LESS likely to be associated with such reactions (by an estimated ratio of 10 to 1) compared to the notorious whole cell pertussis used in the DPT, non-febrile seizures and other neurological effects remain recognized adverse events in the literature.

Anecdotally, my own son, following his DPT (and Hib and oral polio) at age 2 mths., experienced several hours of non-febrile convulsions (he never ran a fever with his reaction or before it. Ran his first fever a few mths later with an ear infection) and other neurological symptoms lasting over 9 hours, including prolonged “inconsolable crying“, “high-pitched screaming”, and, finally, a 12 hour “unrousable episode“, all of which were and are recognized “moderately severe to severe” adverse reactions to pertussis vaccine and considered to indicate probable “nervous system involvement“.

By “following”, I mean that his reaction began with inconsolable crying and a severe local reaction within 15 minutes of the injection and within an hour had progressed to screaming and in another hour or so to seizures as well, just to clarify the time frame.

His seizures were of a type long associated with pertussis vaccine, called in the literature and product inserts “stiffening and staring seizures”. I have seen febrile and epileptic seizures, as well, and his were of a very distinct clinical nature, well described by the name given, as was his screaming, also known colloquially by some researchers as “the encephalitic cry” due to its clinically identical nature to the screaming associated with that condition.

He was born full-term almost to the day, with no complications or interventions (incl. drugs during labor), breast-fed, perfectly healthy as far as could be determined. We have no known family history of neurological or seizure disorders, and at age 14 yrs, he has yet to experience another seizure or neurological event of any kind. No indications of any such condition or propensity whatsoever as of his last check-up a few mths ago. However, FTR, we never vaccinated him again after much research and careful consideration, which may have something to do with his failure to manifest further symptoms.

Another anecdotal account (but one likewise backed up by more than mere anecdotal opinion):
I personally know of a young lady about my son’s age who was rendered profoundly retarded and a paraplegic immediately following her 6 mth. DPT shot. She had reacted to the previous 2 doses with symptoms similar to those my son experienced. (and should not, according to the manufacturer and most authorities, have ever gotten that 3rd dose, but it is often difficult to convince certain Drs of the existence and/or severity of vaccine reactions, even when they are well documented, and her mother’s concerns were dismissed)
No fewer than 12 Doctors of Medicine who examined and worked with her afterwards concurred as to causation, and she received a settlement from VAERS.
Again, no known family history of any such problems and a clean bill of health prior to age 6 mths.

Finally, I would just like to comment on the use of the word “fear”, as it is so often used to disparage legitimate concerns re’ vaccines. I vaccinated my son out of “fear”, truth be told, fear which was carefully ingrained and reinforced by the mainstream media in all its forms, fear of rare and/or rarely harmful illnesses which, I was assured, were more likely than not to maim or kill him should I neglect his routine immunizations.

I opted to not vaccinate him again after educating myself on the facts according to the best available science, not “fear”. There is a huge difference between a fully informed decision and blind, unreasoning “fear”.

But the term is so effective at eliciting an image of some primitive, ignorant, irrational, emotional response to something not understood that it comes in handy when the goal is to dismiss legitimate concerns re’ complicated issues as quickly as possible.
All in all, I find it offensive and condescending, since it is so often used in such a manner.

Raven
 
Anecdotally,

On this forum?

He was born full-term almost to the day, with no complications or interventions (incl. drugs during labor), breast-fed, perfectly healthy as far as could be determined. We have no known family history of neurological or seizure disorders, and at age 14 yrs, he has yet to experience another seizure or neurological event of any kind. No indications of any such condition or propensity whatsoever as of his last check-up a few mths ago. However, FTR, we never vaccinated him again after much research and careful consideration, which may have something to do with his failure to manifest further symptoms.

So perfectaly health yet too weak to withstand even a weakened virus.
Another anecdotal account (but one likewise backed up by more than mere anecdotal opinion):


I personally know

Again wrong board

Finally, I would just like to comment on the use of the word “fear”, as it is so often used to disparage legitimate concerns re’ vaccines. I vaccinated my son out of “fear”, truth be told, fear which was carefully ingrained and reinforced by the mainstream media in all its forms, fear of rare and/or rarely harmful illnesses which, I was assured, were more likely than not to maim or kill him should I neglect his routine immunizations.

In short you admit you can be manipulated and yet expect us to belive that your current position is based on logic.
 
Raven 1,

First of all, welcome.

Secondly, do you have any non-ancedotal evidence that ANY vaccine causes epilepsy?

Thirdly, we took the article at its value. Flange may have overstated a little, but I think he/she/it was trying to draw attention ot the thread. Our discussion since has been about the article, specifically.
 
Big deal... lots of kids get seizures.

Another anecdote: My son had several seizures when he was 48 hours old. This was before he had any kind of jab (he is 17 years old, this is was before HepB, even before Hib).

He has a severe neurologically based communication disorder. He has at least average intelligence, but the damage is specific enough to mostly effect his speech and written communication skills.

Guess what... the cause of his seizures was never found. Which happens to be the case with lots of kids with seizures. From the Epilepsy Foundation page on causes of childhood epilespy is this:
Pinpointing the cause of epilepsy is difficult at any age. In seven out of every ten cases, there is no known cause. These children are then said to have idiopathic epilepsy. "Idiopathic" is a Latin word meaning "of unknown cause."

That means that 70% of kids never find out what caused the seizure.
 
... I just read where someone posted that nobody should worry about Tetanus because "the disease can only thrive where there is very little or no oxygen and children have extremely effective circulatory systems that carry all the oxygen a wound would typically need to prevent it. "

:hb:

Don't dare refute that though. You'll get booted for being provax.
I see the mommy commune members don't get out in the world much. Neonatal tetanus (NT) is the second leading cause of death from vaccine preventable diseases among children worldwide. Perhaps someone already registered on their forum might let them know.

They seem like the types to feed honey to their infants and honey carries the specific risk of transmitting infant botulism as well. That's another one of those little bacteria that grow better in oxygen poor environments. Hello Mommies, can you say CLOSTRIDIAL NEUROTOXINS?
 
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