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"Stop playing the racist card!"

Humes fork

Banned
Humes fork
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
3,358
Stop playing the racist card!

When criticizing religion, it seems to be inevitable to at one point or another encounter people arguing that the criticism is racism. The words used are often things like antisemitism, islamophobia and ethnocentrism – but it is all the same thing – an argument about racism against the opponent. An ad hominen in its most efficient form.
http://thegodlessswede.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/racist.jpg?w=640
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Edited by LashL: 
Changed hotlinked image to regular link.


A very good blogpost by a Swedish skeptic and atheist blogger than many on this forum (at least many of those participating in the religion and philosophy section of the forum) would really benefit from reading. So please read it in full!

It is essentially correct, from what I can see. Whenever I or anyone else here criticize Islam, we don't bring ethnicity or race or origins to the table. It is (ironically) always those who accuse us of bigotry who bring those to the table and then want to cover the entire table with it, so to speak. They are clearly much more interested in that than I or any other critic of Islam here (or Dawkins) is. I agree that those who play the racist card should just shut the **** up.

If you find anything wrong in the bloggpost I linked to, please tell what it is. Be exact and specific.
 
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Worked fine for me 3 minutes later.......

and I have always agreed with the point made, Plus I still find the racist stuff stupid for two reasons - we gained incontrovertible (so far) proof that race is a meaningless concept as it is primarily color based and the color differences have been proven to be long-term sun light/location based, not genetics based. We are all humans. As to religion, some of us are simply more human than others.

Many religious will not like the way I perceive that.
 
I would say that in relation to the four images all bearing the label "Muslim" they look to be of different races so your point seems to be that being anti 'religion' is not being racist.

You do focus a lot on the Muslim religion Humes fork so that alone could call into question your bias against that particular religion, but to be against religion in an outspoken way can be interpreted that you and others who do this, are anti theist.

Some are more focused upon Christians, than Muslims in their criticisms, and only indirectly against Jews (perhaps so's not to be thought of as anti semitic?) but whatever.

Overall the anti theist crowd generally cherry pick and seem certainly to have decided that religion is 'the problem'.

No particular 'solution' to that 'problem' seems forthcoming other than 'education' which the 'anti' crowd go about doing in odds ways reminiscent of anti semitism mannerisms. The focus has slightly altered 'tis all....
 
Navigator said:
No particular 'solution' to that 'problem' seems forthcoming other than 'education'.... (snipped for brevity)
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Depends on who you ask. Harris' Final Solution for Islam goes a little beyond 'education'.
He thinks nukes should be on the table. Why bring them to the ovens when you can send the oven to them?
 
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Humes fork said:
It is essentially correct, from what I can see. Whenever I or anyone else here criticize Islam, we don't bring ethnicity or race or origins to the table. It is (ironically) always those who accuse us of bigotry who bring those to the table and then want to cover the entire table with it, so to speak. They are clearly much more interested in that than I or any other critic of Islam here (or Dawkins) is. I agree that those who play the racist card should just shut the **** up.

If you find anything wrong in the bloggpost I linked to, please tell what it is. Be exact and specific.
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I don't have to look at the blogspot post to point out a problem with this post.

Notice the word in your subject: "racist"

Notice the word in your text: "bigotry"

Your post content has been described as anti-religious bigotry, but not racism. We can look back, but based on my memory nobody has "used the racist card" in a discussion of this type.

Any critical thinker will recognize this as a strawperson argument, right?
Why would you post an argument to a Skeptic's forum that would fail Critical Thinking 101?
 
Humes fork said:
<snippage>.
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picture.php

Well I, for one, have never accused you of racism. I have, and will continue to, point out your bigotry towards a certain religion and it's adherents.
 
Looks like Humes fork has conveniently "forgotten" that Islam(ic) and Muslim are often racialized categories. Even if the primary objection was that racist was an inappropriate label for anti-Islamic and anti-Muslim (aI&aM) attitudes, the assertion that aI&aM attitudes are not racist is consequently itself problematic.

The argument that aI&aM are inappropriately labeled racist is further problematized–in the context of this thread–because Humes fork has a tendency to make grossly generalizing statements about Muslims as a monolithic group. Humes fork's focus on the specific charge of racism, therefore, seems conceptually inconsistent with the simultaneous effort toward generalization about Muslims as a whole. If there's no objection to using fundamentalist Islam and Islamism to criticize Islam as a whole, side stepping the issue of bigotry in general because "Islam is not a race" appears to contradict the over-arching theme of generalization as racism is merely one form bigotry.
 
blutoski said:
Depends on who you ask. Harris' Final Solution for Islam goes a little beyond 'education'.
He thinks nukes should be on the table. Why bring them to the ovens when you can send the oven to them?
Click to expand...

Well is that a fear based solution? Why discriminate when the baby can be chucked away with the bathwater?

"No religion' as a solution, is not a solution at all. The problem would continue unabated.
 
mijopaalmc said:
If there's no objection to using fundamentalist Islam and Islamism to criticize Islam as a whole, side stepping the issue of bigotry in general because "Islam is not a race" appears to contradict the over-arching theme of generalization as racism is merely one form bigotry.
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Yep that is 'the problem'.

Bigotry.
 
Muslims are not a race, but they are predominately foreign. They are the others! IE. Non-white and non-europeans. So in that sense I think one can be rasist when criticizing muslims. But I do not think you can ever be racist if you criticize Islam.

(This post only makes sense if you are in a predominately white country.)
 
Navigator said:
Yep that is 'the problem'.

Bigotry.
Click to expand...

While I agree with that prejudice and fear (here: bigotry) are, as you put it "'the problem'", it is still problematic to pass aI&aM attitudes off as "mere(ly)" or "only" bigotry, as bigotry often carries the connotation of personal preference. The larger issues at play is that aI&aM sentiments are increasingly–and especially in Europe–becoming institutionalized, which in itself lends credence to the idea that an "ism" rather than many people merely disliking Muslims and Islam.

Within the context of this forum, Humes fork is a self-professed "cultural supremacist" who has, time and again, asserted that Islam is fundamentally at odds with Western cultural values, which is more indicative of the systematic and pervasive nature of "isms" that a personal-preference bigotry.
 
hgus said:
Muslims are not a race, but they are predominately foreign. They are the others! IE. Non-white and non-europeans. So in that sense I think one can be rasist when criticizing muslims. But I do not think you can ever be racist if you criticize Islam.

(This post only makes sense if you are in a predominately white country.)
Click to expand...

Yep, that's the reality that complicates everything. Humes_Fork may not be a racist, but his fellow travellers mostly are, and they're the crooked timber that fuels this bonfire.

My aunt is a typical specimen. Her opinion is that, yes, East Indian people may be Sikhs or Hindus, but they should be given 'extra attention' at the airports while white folk like us should be able to just walk past security without being hassled. Because, even if the brownies say they're not Moslem, you can never be sure. They could be faking it.

In her opinion, we need to tell the peecee people to suck it, and just get down to brass tacks and ban anybody with brown skin and a big nose from flying. When I told her that would include pretty much all Jews, she paused for a moment and said, "OK: they can have special permission. That proves I'm not racist, right?"

So, my aunt's 'non racist' plan was to issue Jews special papers they have to carry around to travel. Irony truly is dead.
 
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