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Step too far for Phelps

I agree with slingblade. There are limits to the geographic spaces in which our right to free speech may be exercised.

We may not yell "FIRE!" in an auditorium or other public venue (unless, of course, there is a fire).

We may not use vulgar or inflammatory language in public places where others can hear.

We may not cause a disturbance of the peace in any public or private place, except on our own property, where others cannot see or hear.

We may not threaten others with physical harm, nor may we slander others.

We may not stand in a right-of-way (sidewalk, street, parking space, etc.) and block traffic while we speak.

We may not vocalize our discontent with the government inside a government building, even one to which public access is granted.

We may not argue with a police officer in the course of his/her carrying out his/her duty.

Now, according to new laws in Ohio, (soon-to-be) Arizona, and a growing number of US states, we may not attend a funeral to express derogatory comments about the deceased. Legally this could easily fall under the "disturbance of the peace" umbrella already established in local codes and ordinances in every city in the civilized world.

I know, and I agree. It really is a shame we find the need to put a spatial barrier between expressions of hatred and expressions of grief.

But lest anyone think I am advocating a legal denial of Phelps' freedom of speech, consider this analogy, or example:

I am freely allowed to criticize my government, but I am not allowed to go into the chambers of the House or Senate and start yelling my opinions, disrupting the assembly. If I do so, I will be removed. This is not a denial of my right to criticize, but a limit on the method of my criticism. There are other, more appropriate venues in which I may speak and be heard.

I have the right to voice my opinions, within certain limits. Free speech is limited. Slander and libel laws prove that, amply. One can't just say any old thing they care to say, and face no consequences for it.

Phelps has an equal right to spew the venomous speech he and his "church" daily vomit up. He does not, in my opinion, have the right to disrupt the funeral of my dead child to do so, any more than he would have the right to do this in the chambers of the House or Senate.

This example may be ill-suited to make my point. I'm sure I'll be quickly informed, if it is. ;)
 
Apparently not. That's the argument I've always heard: they're public places, or the grounds around them, like a city street next to the cemetery, are public lands.

eta: So if the public street they choose to stand on happens to be 20 feet away from a funeral in progress, they're not breaking any laws, because anyone can be on any public street.

It'd be unworkable to rezone every cemetery so that it has a natural buffer zone around it. Many cemeteries are closely bordered by streets on all sides.
.
I was in a cemetary waiting for the funeral procession to arrive, and noted a person drive up to visit a grave. Turned out to be his son, victim of a traffic accident.
Someone drove up behind this person, got out of his car and began to curse him for the way he had entered the cemetary... ending with shouting "Faggot!" at the guy as he drove away.
The crazies don't have any hold on the realities of life at all.
Phelps is the same.
 
The bereaved have rights, too. They should somehow be protected.

I had a good friend who was KIA in Iraq back in 2007, and his family and I got word that the Phelps clan was going to picket his funeral. At one of the absolute worst times in our lives, we found ourselves shouldering the burden of trying to block these people and prevent them from disrupting the funeral proceedings. My friend left behind two young sons, and trying to explain to them why people might come to the funeral carrying signs saying how happy they were that their father was dead, was heartbreaking as well as infuriating.

We utilized the services of the Patriot Guard Riders to keep the Phelps away. Fortunately the Phelps were a no show. The PGR are some really great people. Very professional, very helpful. What the Phelps are doing is not protected freedom of speech in my opinion. Being verbally abusive to people going to a funeral, including shouting obcenities at children mourning their dead father, is not exercising one's freedom of speech. The Phelps are vile thugs, and deserve every bit of bad fortune that comes their way.

Rolls
 
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Jan 11, 2011
Ariz. lawmakers OK ban on protests at funerals

Heading of picketing of funerals for Tucson shooting victims, Arizona's Legislature has unanimously passed emergency legislation outlawing protests at or near funeral sites, KPHO-TV reports.

Gov. Jan Brewer is expected to sign the bill, which would take effect immediately.
(...)

The bill, patterned after an Ohio law, establishes a 300-foot protection zone around a funeral from one hour before until one hour after, The Arizona Republic explains.


http://content.usatoday.com/communi...iz-lawmakers-ok-ban-on-protests-at-funerals/1
 
This guy seriously has no shame whatsoever

http://www.huliq.com/3257/phelps-an...applaud-tucson-shootings-plan-funeral-pickets



I really hope that the people planning on doing this abhorrent action are denied any services they'll need to get there. Food, lodging, gas, transportation, etc. Their pictures need to be posted everywhere.

Okay, a slightly different take on the WBC. Note where I'm coming from though: I'm an atheist and I think the WBC is a callous bunch of attention whores who need their butts kicked. That said, their defense is actually accurate as far as the bible goes. This is not to say they are acting in accord with Jesus (but there's no first hand accounts of what Jesus did or was like anyway) as we've come to understand him. But their God of hate is rightfully found in the old testament. They actually have a logical argument on their website regarding God as depicted in the bible--for every mention of a gentle God, they point out there are 3 that describe him as hateful. Of course, I think this biblical vengeful god is one not worth worship, ever, but how is it that other Christians ignore the angered wrathful god for the gentler one? Are they cherry picking? Are the WBC acting as true Christians in their hateful, moronic way?
 
Okay, a slightly different take on the WBC. Note where I'm coming from though: I'm an atheist and I think the WBC is a callous bunch of attention whores who need their butts kicked. That said, their defense is actually accurate as far as the bible goes. This is not to say they are acting in accord with Jesus (but there's no first hand accounts of what Jesus did or was like anyway) as we've come to understand him. But their God of hate is rightfully found in the old testament. They actually have a logical argument on their website regarding God as depicted in the bible--for every mention of a gentle God, they point out there are 3 that describe him as hateful. Of course, I think this biblical vengeful god is one not worth worship, ever, but how is it that other Christians ignore the angered wrathful god for the gentler one? Are they cherry picking? Are the WBC acting as true Christians in their hateful, moronic way?

Well...that falls under the No True Scotsman fallacy.

What is a "true" Christian? Everyone will have an opinion, some more or less valid than others.

How about an obedient Christian? Even there, it's fallacious, but maybe that comes closer to the intent. I dunno. Sometimes, critical thinking is difficult. :)
 
I'm wondering: would someone pulling out a gun and shooting all of Phelps and his family and followers qualify as God "bringing vengeance?" Using Phelps line of reasoning, I think it would. The lord works in mysterious ways, after all, and we can't subvert the will of God, now can we?
 
I'm wondering: would someone pulling out a gun and shooting all of Phelps and his family and followers qualify as God "bringing vengeance?" Using Phelps line of reasoning, I think it would. The lord works in mysterious ways, after all, and we can't subvert the will of God, now can we?
Well. I 'spects it would. I'd be cheering and would certainly attend the mass funeral'n'P Party afterwards!:D
 
I saw reference to one court action favoring WBC with a judgment of about 17K, which has not yet been collected pending appeal. Did I miss something?

I dunno. There are probably other sources. I guess I was hoping that one would lead you to others.
 
My wife and I are planning on going to see the spectacle. Less than a couple miles away.

Don't worry... I'll be good :D
 
Hard to get at their financing:

Court unseals financial records of Westboro Baptist Church

Baltimore Sun/November 15, 2007

Eight pages of documents submitted in U.S. District Court in Baltimore by the church and three of its members - and made public at The Sun's request - reveal they have a net worth of almost $1 million but do not fully explain how the church is able to fund its picketing near military burials across the country.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/westboro/westboro59.html


(...)
Secondly, Phelps had some notable wins. He won nearly $20,000 in a 1978 case against a school. In the mid-1990s, he absolutely took the City of Topeka and Shawnee County to the cleaners, winning around $200,000 in compensation for legal fees. It is worth noting here that these legal fees are presumably paid to Phelps Chartered law firm (founded by Fred Phelps, and its current roster of attorneys is either directly or by marriage related to Phelps), then recycled back into the WBC rather than paying outside lawyers.

Still, one wonders if that is enough money to sustain the church, even if we assume the WBC is winning a wide variety of smaller settlements being won across the country (with help from the ACLU), it does not seem as lawsuits alone would provide enough money to run an organization that allegedly spends $250,000 a year on picketing. That they have tax-exempt status as a church helps.

http://blog.stanfordreview.org/2010...o-baptist-church-at-stanford-the-law-and-wbc/
 
How about a little non-lethal supression? Like one of those giant slingshots and water balloons filled with piss?
 
What I am about to say is horrific.
The SCOTUS has determined that certain acts of violence can be resonably seen to have been influenced by another person's speech: the concept of "fighting words", which are intended to incite an adversary to violence. In the case of the WBC, they count on the grieving to ignore them, or try to, and for the peripheral persons to assault them. Any actual family member would be well within accepted jurisprudence in assaulting someone defaming a recently deceased family member at the funeral of said relation. The horrific part is, don't punch Fred or one of the other adult idiots, but beat the hell out of one of the little kids that they make tag along.
Every kid in the cult will think twice about attending the next rally, and the adults will actually be forced to limit the children's involvement in the most hideous parts of the church's activities. Eventually, without young people willing to be justifiably beaten, the sad little cult dies out.
I truly believe that, in the case of the WBC, violence is the proper response.
And nits make lice.
 
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What I am about to say is horrific.

And nits make lice.

I know where that comes from.

And yes, it is horrific, and unconscionable to me.
I just want Fred to shut up. I won't be sorry when he dies of natural causes, but I can't applaud his murder. I certainly can't...can't imagine thinking that children ought to be beaten, or even die, for the poisoned rhetoric they've heard.

One of Fred's grown children has been known to frequent this forum. He's not part of "the family" anymore. I won't deny that freedom to his other relatives.

I simply couldn't.


Please don't ever use the phrase "nits make lice" again. Please? It was wrong when Chivington said it. It isn't any more right in any other case. And it makes me literally ill to see it used again.
 
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sorry autumn1971, can't go with the idea of taking after the kids. Or the use of any violence whatsoever.

Just because legally speaking there are such a thing as "fighting words" does not mean that it is a good idea to initiate violence hoping for that as a shield. I am firmly against violence in any kind of activism short of literal self-defense.
 
Want to help the clan die off? Offer a full scholarship to a first-rate secular university to any Phelps child who cuts ties to their family.
Give the kids a better option, and it's unlikely many of them will stick around.
 

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