Steel shipped to China...

[DGM]

Thanks, I can understand that.

I hope you can preserve this memorial in some way. I lost a friend in the South Tower. We have a memorial here in town and I have a small token implanted under the brick that bears her name. It's where I go on the anniversary.

 

[beachnut]

...
I guess by "locked down", what I meant was; fully secured the control of evidence at the ground zero site.

If police showed up to the scene and found a man who had been stabbed, but a neighbor who witnessed the stabbing claimed that they also heard a gunshot during the incident, the police would be obligated to test for gsr

The scene was "locked downed" on 911, it was a search and rescue operation, the fire department owns it first.

Locked down, ...

While "locked downed", a scientist/engineer inspects the steel which was ever so slowly shipped to be recycled.

There were no sounds of explosives on 911, and no evidence. In my GSR analogy, there were no sounds of guns, just a knife. Fire is not explosives, why would you test for explosives when not explosives were used?

 

[tHayner]

The scene was "locked downed" on 911, it was a search and rescue operation, the fire department owns it first.

Yes the FD owned it. But I wouldn't really call it secure. There were media and others that were plain clothed. Some people's clothing had become unrecognizable with the dust. Hundreds of first responders were showing up, in varying states of readiness, deploying to numerous spots spread all over a huge area, with varying amounts / types of gear if any. They were expecting hundreds of survivors, some roamers, some under light debris others under heavy debris. All kinds of people were hiding in buildings that were not (and in WTC7's case, not yet) destroyed.

There's 20+ bong shops around Washington Square Park that have been selling novelty Media Badges and other fake ID cards since the 80's (employee passes, student id's, pay an extra $50 for a drivers license, etc), and a fake media pass is not a bad thing to have lying around if you live in a place with as much action as New York. If you look at the Inside WCT7 Video from after the collapse of 1 and 2, nobody is paying any attention to the cameraman. Everybody around him has their own orders, and that's what they're focused on. Until the cameraman actively engages with each first responder, they barely even notice him, some give a quick glance at best, but nobody appears to view any media badge (if he even had one) from less than 3-4 feet. Secret Service guy suggests, not orders, him to leave, and seems quite lax about it. To me, it doesn't not look that difficult to move around the site that day, just act like your supposed to be there, and your probably not gonna get bothered.

There were no sounds of explosives on 911, and no evidence.

None in the non-peer reviewed NIST/Commission reports which excluded known witnesses. But that maintenance worker guy claims basement explosion before plane collision up top. 20 years of employment there puts him well above the generally accepted 10K hrs benchmark for being considered an expert. And based on his actions that day I think we can say that he was calm, collected, and had good situational awareness throughout the entire series of events. So in the real world, there is a credible expert witness claiming that he heard and felt an explosion from an area of the building where it should not have been. 13 yrs after JFK the govt reinvestigated, the conclusion was the same, but at least they took the chance to investigate it with additional / newer evidence and more declassification.

 

[TJM]

20 years of employment there puts him well above the generally accepted 10K hrs benchmark for being considered an expert.

What the hell does that even mean? Something else they sell in head shops around Washington Square Park?

 

[tHayner]

10K hrs, it's a benchmark number.

USA/CAN Middle and High school 6 hr/d class time + 2 hr/d study/homework time for 7 yrs = 10K hrs and you get a high school diploma. I think UK, Euro, Aus education systems are similar. China probably more.

4yr Degree is about 8500 hrs
Avg apprenticeship 8500 hrs
5yr (Engineer, CPA, etc.) Degree 10K hrs
5yr work experience/ long apprentenceship 10k hrs
Masters
PhD / Esquire / JD / MD / Pro Athlete

When you get one of those titles, you are an expert, of the respective level, at your study of choice.

This guy spent 40,000 hours (15% of the total time the buildings stood from completion to collapse) in those buildings. Everybody knows that those buildings move naturally. That means he was there during; hurricanes and heavy winds for sure, maybe small seismic tremors (they're rare but they happen naturally, I don't have the frequency data), he might have been there for the first bombing and def was there during cleanup / rebuild, there was a subway / path station right below and he spent a lot of time in the basement, the billions of dollars in gold that was stored there being moved as it was bought and sold over the years, multi-floor renovations and other construction, etc. So it has to be agreed that he felt those buildings move in many different ways, from many different locations throughout the complex, over the course of 40K hrs.

I think you can at least grant him, if you will, the equivalent knowledge of a 4yr BA degree in, "knowing what the buildings movements felt like".

 

[beachnut]

Y...

None in the non-peer reviewed NIST/Commission reports which excluded known witnesses. But that maintenance worker guy claims basement explosion before plane collision up top. 20 years of employment there puts him well above the generally accepted 10K hrs benchmark for being considered an expert. And based on his actions that day I think we can say that he was calm, collected, and had good situational awareness throughout the entire series of events. So in the real world, there is a credible expert witness claiming that he heard and felt an explosion from an area of the building where it should not have been. 13 yrs after JFK the govt reinvestigated, the conclusion was the same, but at least they took the chance to investigate it with additional / newer evidence and more declassification.

There is no new evidence on 911.

The guy felt the aircraft hit before the sound in air reached him. Called physics. If he experienced an explosive going off in the Basement he would be dead. Look up speed of sound in steel vs air.

There were no explosives used on 911, but keep thinking you have evidence in the simile of loud sounds.

NIST did not ignore the witnesses, you ignored NIST.

JFK? lol, too many people think the Movie JFK is real, and not a story about a crazy lawyer. Too many people forgot to ask those witnesses what they really heard, and they think they need a new investigation when they never read or studied the hundreds of studies, investigation and papers on 911.

What did they really hear? Not explosives, I have heard explosives, I have had Saddam throw SCUDs at me, and blow out my windows, and the witnesses did not hear explosives.

https://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/whattheyheard
Did you ask any of the witnesses what they really think the loud sounds were? no, but some will tell you if it was not for the quote mining of 911 truth.

Following are 16 WTC first responder descriptions of explosive noises well before the towers collapsed:

"Sounded like bombs" –Keith Murphy
"A huge explosion" –Gerard Gorman
"Sound of popping and exploding" –Alwish Monchery
"Explosions" –William Burns
"Kept hearing these large boom, boom" –Rosario Terranova
"Sounded like explosions." –Anthony Fitzgerald
"Like a shotgun going off" –Mark Meier
"Sounded like explosions" –Wilfred Barriere
"Sounded like bombs, like blockbusters" –John Murray
"You could hear explosions" –Richard Smiouskas
"Sounded like an M-80, that's how loud they were" –Tim Pearson
"Sounds like a shotgun" –Eric Ronningen
"Sounded like an explosion" –John Morabito
"There were lots of explosions" –Jeff Birnbaum
"Under the assumption that the sounds were secondary bombs." –Andrew Rodriguez
"Sounded like bombs. Like a bomb going off. I mean, it was huge." –FDNY Deputy Chief Peter Hayden

It would be dishonest of me to represent these accounts as anything but what they are: descriptions of bodies from the towers hitting the ground. But members of the 9/11 "truth" movement have no such compunction about misrepresenting dozens of other eyewitness accounts. https://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/whattheyheard

 

[tHayner]

There is no new evidence on 911.

OBL's death is quite relevant to the 9/11 story tho, and should be officially added to the 9/11 story. As well as a summary of our intelligence on his relation to the attacks up until / just after his death (even if heavily redacted for decades)

The guy felt the aircraft hit before the sound in air reached him. Called physics. If he experienced an explosive going off in the Basement he would be dead. Look up speed of sound in steel vs air.

the wiki on him, William Rodriguez, says he claimed to hear first, then feel. Now I don't know what to say here. Best solution, continue official investigation and compare your physics to his NIST interview.

There were no explosives used on 911, but keep thinking you have evidence in the simile of loud sounds.

What would be so bad about doing a few tests if you could find a wide sample of pieces from various areas/sections. It can't be that expensive, I once boarded a plane after cutting the lawn in the morning, I was wearing the same shoes and they were covered in green grass goo, security pulled me aside and tested my shoes and other belongings for explosives, 20 mins later I was cleared and heading to the gate. How hard could it really be, and it would give you the opportunity to say that tests done showed no explosives if that were the case. It doesn't need to be definitive either way, and if it's not then it can be classified as "not yet considered" just like witness statements. The information is there though for consideration in future studies.

NIST did not ignore the witnesses, you ignored NIST.

they interviewed 1200+, but did not definitively account for all of the phenomena described in all of those interviews. The report itself says it's only a start, and that not all of the information collected was considered since there was just so much of it. Why not set a good example for the future, and continue to work toward finishing what we started.

JFK? lol...

Over time, information on any of these big events will become less redacted, and new clues / evidence will be considered and become available to the public. But we have to gather this information now, even if only to redact it for 100 yrs. Like you said with JFK, nobody asked the witnesses the right questions and now it's too late. We learned that lesson then, let's not forget it now with 9/11. Even if it takes 2 generations for all the redacted stuff to be completely revealed, that third generation's history books will have the whole story to learn from.

What did they really hear? Not explosives...I have had Saddam throw SCUDs at me...and the witnesses did not hear explosives.

Did you ask any of the witnesses what they really think the loud sounds were? no, but some will tell you if it was not for the quote mining of 911 truth.

I see your point, that's a lot of differing opinions / sound comparisons of a body landing. Maybe if the investigation continues, the next group of interviews to be considered should be prioritized to include Vietnam / Iraq 1 Veterans, as they would likely be the ones with the most experience there.



I shortened you quote's only to save space. I'm new to this, not sure what the general practice is.

 

[beachnut]

OBL's death is quite relevant to the 9/11 story tho, and should be officially added to the 9/11 story.
...

I see your point, that's a lot of differing opinions / sound comparisons of a body landing. Maybe if the investigation continues,...

I shortened you quote's only to save space. I'm new to this, not sure what the general practice is.

What redacted stuff is related to explosives/steel shipped to China. zero
What redacted stuff is associate with WTC fires/steel shipped to China. zero
Is the 911 truth explosives fantasy supported by the implication, made by 911 truth, no steel was studied because it was shipped to China.

There was no damage on 911 due to explosives, the steel was studied, and the most unique steel damage was corrosion in fire. Engineers/scientists were looking for unique stuff.

Zero visual signs of explosives.
8 months to study steel as it was removed from the WTC.
Where is the evidence for explosives; in the fantasy minds of 911 truth followers who think all the steel was shipped to China to cover up the inside job of silent explosives with no blast effects.

Explosives would burn off in fires, UBL is not dumb enough to ram planes into buildings starting fires so explosives cook off; only 911 truth plots are that silly and illogical. Wonder how 911 truth's fantasy of a new investigation to back in explosives has the explosives fused.

UBL? What does UBL have to do with explosives, and the fantasy sub-plot of shipping steel to China to hide evidence.

UBL's death is added, he is dead. How does UBL's death add to the failed claims of explosives and shipping steel to China faster than free-fall. UBL was wanted before 911.

NIST did account for witnesses sounds. It was stuff found in buildings of fire and collapsing. The loud noises, buildings falling, transformers blew up, floors hit floors at high speed, and the energy of over 130 tons of TNT was released due to E=mgh, twice, in one day. Physics and fires account for the loud noises, and there were no sounds of explosives.

https://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/whattheyheard

After reading all the work from NIST, FEMA, and many studies/papers done by universities and others, what is missing that needs a "new" investigation related to impacts, fires, collapse, and steel shipped to China.

If you and 911 truth want another investigation, raise the money and do it. No sure how loud noises and hearsay of loud noises is proof of explosives which failed to damage anyone, or anything on 911.

William Rodriguez, does he have a degree; he would be dead if there were bombs in the WTC basement. With impacts equal in energy to 1300 and 2093 pounds of TNT, I am sure those sounded and felt like "explosions" in the basement on 911.

Which part of the many studies require a new investigation?

 

[Oystein]

...
the wiki on him, William Rodriguez, says he claimed to hear first, then feel. Now I don't know what to say here. Best solution, continue official investigation and compare your physics to his NIST interview.

It really should be the other way round: Compare what witnesses say with the physics.
We have plenty of physics - recorded events (sounds on video, seismic data), and we know how explosives work and how they don't work.
Witnesses' perceptions and their interpretation of perceptions are notiously unreliable, especially in one-off events far outside the envelope of normal experience. Then those perceptions are committed to memory and later retrieved - a process that is also known to be notoriously unreliable.

As an example: In april 1992 there was an earthquake of magnitude 5.8 shaking the region where I live at 3:20 am in the night - the strongest in this part of Europe in over 200 years.
About 9 hours later, while I was having lunch, I overheard two construction workers on the table next to mine talking about it: one had slept through the event and asked the other how long the quake shook. Reply: "Ohh wasn't long, only perhaps 2 minutes!"

In reality, it was about 15 seconds. Witness was off by a factor of 8 in a question of timing.
Should we question the official report on the earthquake because some witnesses report conflicting data?

Problem with Rodriguez is that he was in the basement and had no visuals to guide his timeline. He presumably heard a sequence of loud sounds, couldn't know at the time what they were, and later, when more information trickled in, tried to make sense of what he remembered. This process alone, of retrospective interpretation, is prone to alter the memory sufficiently to render it unreliable.

I understand that William Rodriguez by now does not believe any longer he witnessed bombs.

...
I shortened you quote's only to save space. I'm new to this, not sure what the general practice is.

I think this is an excellent practice - only quote what you are actually responding to.

But two notes of advice:
a) This is off-topic here in the thread on "Steel shipped to China". Short derails are often accepted, but y'all should not go on, or take it to an appropriate thread
b) Be careful with Beachnut! I think he is right contentwise, but his style is mostly ranting; best to not let him lead you into off-topic territory.




About the steel pieces you have: Photo will be appreciated, although DGM makes a good point that the steel that landed way outside of the perimeter and was picked up on the streets will mostly not have been from floor trusses, as the floor slabs by and large pancaked straight down within the "cage" of perimeter steel.

 

[beachnut]

... just like witness statements. ...

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packag...12_WTC_GRAPHIC/met_WTC_histories_full_01.html

Here they are. Over 500 witnesses, and 911 truth has quote mined these people to make up the fantasy of CD, inside job, explosives and more... and thus the BS of shipping off the steel to China to cover-up the inside job. 911 truth logic in action, CD by no blast effect silent explosives.
With no evidence, 911 truth has failed, and we have the "new" investigation pushed by Gage who lies about 911, a fraud movement based on lies. With Gage pushing the BS, steel "rapidly shipped off to India and China for recycling". For Gage and 911 truth "rapidly" equals 8 months.

The "new" investigation reveals liars make up 911 truth, spewing steel was "rapidly (8 months plus shipping)" sent to China to hide evidence of explosives, silent ones. The NWO wins with silent explosives which have no blast effects. New investigation complete.
Is 8 months rapidly? Is Gage spreading lies...

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

OBL's death is quite relevant to the 9/11 story tho, and should be officially added to the 9/11 story. As well as a summary of our intelligence on his relation to the attacks up until / just after his death (even if heavily redacted for decades)



the wiki on him, William Rodriguez, says he claimed to hear first, then feel. Now I don't know what to say here. Best solution, continue official investigation and compare your physics to his NIST interview.



What would be so bad about doing a few tests if you could find a wide sample of pieces from various areas/sections. It can't be that expensive, I once boarded a plane after cutting the lawn in the morning, I was wearing the same shoes and they were covered in green grass goo, security pulled me aside and tested my shoes and other belongings for explosives, 20 mins later I was cleared and heading to the gate. How hard could it really be, and it would give you the opportunity to say that tests done showed no explosives if that were the case. It doesn't need to be definitive either way, and if it's not then it can be classified as "not yet considered" just like witness statements. The information is there though for consideration in future studies.



they interviewed 1200+, but did not definitively account for all of the phenomena described in all of those interviews. The report itself says it's only a start, and that not all of the information collected was considered since there was just so much of it. Why not set a good example for the future, and continue to work toward finishing what we started.



Over time, information on any of these big events will become less redacted, and new clues / evidence will be considered and become available to the public. But we have to gather this information now, even if only to redact it for 100 yrs. Like you said with JFK, nobody asked the witnesses the right questions and now it's too late. We learned that lesson then, let's not forget it now with 9/11. Even if it takes 2 generations for all the redacted stuff to be completely revealed, that third generation's history books will have the whole story to learn from.



I see your point, that's a lot of differing opinions / sound comparisons of a body landing. Maybe if the investigation continues, the next group of interviews to be considered should be prioritized to include Vietnam / Iraq 1 Veterans, as they would likely be the ones with the most experience there.



I shortened you quote's only to save space. I'm new to this, not sure what the general practice is.

The test for explosives is to use visible
Clues because chemical test can render false
Positives.

No.shrapnel or simular visual evidence
Was found.

Must point out the steel would have been
Repainted when installed.

 

[Redwood]

The WTC site was under the control of FDNY, but it was in no sense "locked down". Volunteers came from all over the country to help out; some were professionals, others just ordinary folks who wanted to pitch in. The cleanup was pretty much spontaneously organized by the workers themselves.

 

[tHayner]

Here are pictures. There's a bit of parallax and she only had a transparent ruler but she said 10" tall x 5 3/4" wide x 1/2" thick. The last time I saw it I thought I remembered the cut edge being clean and visible but now it looks completely rusted over. Apparently the rock it was attached to had to be moved after Sandy so my dad took the cross off and it is now inside the house with the yellow ribbon on it.