Statistics about Jesus fulfilling prophecy

[Elizabeth I]

You'll notice the mention in the Bible that Jesus's 2 "companions" on the cross got their legs broken first. That was the standard coup de grace procedure. It caused death within minutes.

I'm not arguing with your statement that the Romans never took anyone down alive, but why would breaking someone's legs kill him within minutes? Did everyone in biblical times die if they broke a leg, or even both legs?

Thanks.

 

[This Guy]

I'm not arguing with your statement that the Romans never took anyone down alive, but why would breaking someone's legs kill him within minutes? Did everyone in biblical times die if they broke a leg, or even both legs?

Thanks.

I'll take a swing at this

I believe being hung on the cross caused fluid build up in the lung, and problems of various kinds. Some of these problems could be lessened by pushing up with the legs/feet/ankles.

I'm gonna guess that not having the legs to use (as in they are broken) would prevent the relief they provided, and result in a much quicker death.

Now I'll step back and see what the smart folks say about it

Here's a link to a description of what happens during a crucification. I'm not saying it's accurate, but it seems to agree with the little I've read about the subject. This is an attempt to describe what Jesus would have gone through, and is from what I assume to be a Christian source. Was the first link Google gave that described what happens physically.

"At this point, another phenomenon occurs. As the arms fatigue, great
waves of cramps sweep over the muscles, knotting them in deep, relentless,
throbbing pain. With these cramps comes the inability to push Himself
upward. Hanging by His arms, the pectoral muscles are paralyzed and the
intercostal muscles are unable to act. Air can be drawn into the lungs,
but cannot be exhaled. Jesus fights to raise Himself in order to get even
one short breath. Finally carbon dioxide builds up in the lungs and in
the blood stream and the cramps partially subside. Spasmodically, He is
able to push Himself upward to exhale and bring in the life-giving oxygen.
It was undoubtedly during these periods that He uttered the seven short
sentences which are recorded:"

 

[Elizabeth I]

I'll take a swing at this

I believe being hung on the cross caused fluid build up in the lung, and problems of various kinds. Some of these problems could be lessened by pushing up with the legs/feet/ankles.

I'm gonna guess that not having the legs to use (as in they are broken) would prevent the relief they provided, and result in a much quicker death.

Now I'll step back and see what the smart folks say about it

Here's a link to a description of what happens during a crucification. I'm not saying it's accurate, but it seems to agree with the little I've read about the subject. This is an attempt to describe what Jesus would have gone through, and is from what I assume to be a Christian source. Was the first link Google gave that described what happens physically.

"At this point, another phenomenon occurs. As the arms fatigue, great
waves of cramps sweep over the muscles, knotting them in deep, relentless,
throbbing pain. With these cramps comes the inability to push Himself
upward. Hanging by His arms, the pectoral muscles are paralyzed and the
intercostal muscles are unable to act. Air can be drawn into the lungs,
but cannot be exhaled. Jesus fights to raise Himself in order to get even
one short breath. Finally carbon dioxide builds up in the lungs and in
the blood stream and the cramps partially subside. Spasmodically, He is
able to push Himself upward to exhale and bring in the life-giving oxygen.
It was undoubtedly during these periods that He uttered the seven short
sentences which are recorded:"

Thanks.

It's depressing to consider the lengths some members of our species will sometimes go to inflict pain on other members of our species.

 

[HansMustermann]

I'm not arguing with your statement that the Romans never took anyone down alive, but why would breaking someone's legs kill him within minutes? Did everyone in biblical times die if they broke a leg, or even both legs?

Thanks.

It all depends on how it was done. If it involved severing the femoral artery, for example, the effect on your blood stream is akin to what happens when you cut the bottom off a papercup full of water. Again, depending on how it was done, fat embolism could get you if the blood loss didn't.

At any rate, we don't know exactly how it was done, but the Romans seem to have found a way that is consistently lethal. Since, you know, they had that as a standard coup de grace.

 

[TimCallahan]

kurious kathy:

When it comes to Jesus and prophecies, let's consider one he made concerning himself. In Matthew 16:27, 28, Jesus says:

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with the holy angels; then he willl repay every man according to his works. Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

This has to be the second comng, and it was supposed to happen in the generation that knew Jesus; i. e. it should have happened before the end of the first century. So, what went wrong?

 

[TimCallahan]

Kathy:

When it comes to Jesus and prophecy, how about this one he made about himself? In Matthew 16:27, 28 Jesus says:

"For the Son of man is come in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Then he will repay every man according to his works. Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man come into his kingdom."

This can only refer to the second coming and the last judgment happening in the time of the generation that knew Jesus, i.e. before the end ofthe first century. So, since this didn't happen, what went wrong?

 

[TimCallahan]

kathy:

In Matthew 16:27, 28 Jesus says: "For the Son of man is to come in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Then he will repay every man according to his works. Truly I say to you, there are some standing her who will not taste death before they see the Son of man come into his kingdom."

So, why didn't the Second Coming take place before the end of the first century?

 

[7th sextile]

kathy:

In Matthew 16:27, 28 Jesus says: "For the Son of man is to come in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Then he will repay every man according to his works. Truly I say to you, there are some standing her who will not taste death before they see the Son of man come into his kingdom."

So, why didn't the Second Coming take place before the end of the first century?

Now - why do I get the feeling there're a lot more where those came from?

Also,TA,if you want a good summary/critique of OT prophecies and Jesus:

ISBN : 0-9655047-0-0

"Bible Prophecy : Failure or Fulfillment? '(Chapter 5 )

it's by...emmm...wait....tip of my toungue......

 

[ZirconBlue]

Also, elements which suggested that Jesus wasn't divine went on the editing room floor, while those authors who supported Jesus as the Son of God went into the final theatrical release.

Dear Ed! Now you've got me dreading the inevitable Director's Cut.

 

[The Platypus]

Prophets, psychics, foreseers, fortunetellers, mentalists, etc, whatever you want to call them, are nothing but cons, tricks, and wishful thinking. They never stand up to testing or scrutiny.

It's amazing that in today's age that there are some people that are still fooled by this old scam.

 

[Delvo]

Jesus says: "...there are some standing her who will not taste death before they see the Son of man come into his kingdom."

So, why didn't the Second Coming take place before the end of the first century?

Because some of them are still alive: immortals walking among us in secret...

 

[The Platypus]

Because some of them are still alive: immortals walking among us in secret...

ya ya thats it..... secret immortals

 

[hamelekim]

The gospel writers, and Jesus himself, were very well aware of the prophesies. Fudging the stories to match up with them was a trivial task.

The gospels even admit that Jesus did specific things "in fulfilment of prophesy", that is, he did them specifically because he knew of the prophesy. If I know the prophesy says the messiah will drive a red Ford, and I want to be considered the messiah... obviously I'm going to buy a red Ford. Hardly proves anything though.

True, if you know something is supposed to happen, you can "make" it happen. But that only goes so far. When you get into supernatural events only God could do that, and if those events begin to happen it would be difficult to deny.

I mean look at some of the prophecies in the Bible:

1. The Israeli people will be spread across the world (This happened, but it was before it was written down)

2. The Israeli people will be brought back to Israel and their language will be Hebrew (This happened last century)

3. Christianity will wane in popularity. Look at the massive decrease in Church going and Bible believing Christians in the last 50 years.

4. Earthquakes will increase. We have seen a large increase in earthquakes in the last 20 years.

5. The whole falling away from Christianity leads to a host of "immoral" behavior which is listed in the NT.

When you get to the seals you see several things.

1. Global economic collapse

2. Disease will sweep the world. This is something that all international organizations are saying is only a matter of when not if.

3. 7 year peace Deal with Israel. Haven't seen this one yet, but once it happens we have 7 years left.

4. One man will rise up who will confirm the peace deal, who will be looked on with wonder by the rest of the world.

5. This man will perform wonders and miracles.


So looking at that list. You can make some real stretches to explain some of that, but a lot is extremely difficult to ignore.

When you really start to look at the signs we see all of them right now, and it's really strange that they are all happening now.

Consider that just half a decade ago Christianity was huge, and it had been for the better part of 2000 years. All of a sudden we see this massive decrease in Church attendance.

How do you explain the increase in earthquakes. New equipment doesn't explain the increase in strong earthquakes which the old equipment picked up just fine.

How do you explain that the Bible says that Israel will be a nation again, after they are broken up and taken away, and here we see it happen. You think that all of these things are just coincidence?

If you see a 7 year peace deal and you still think it's nothing, even though it is written in the Bible, then I don't know what to say about you.

 

[TimCallahan]

Kurious kathy said:

Well in Mattew Chapter 24 is everything Jesus said about the end of time and his return.

Well, that's not entirely true. In Matthew 16:27, 28 Jesus says:

"For the Son of man is to come in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Then he will repay every man according to his works. Truly I say to you, there are some sanding here today who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming into his kingdom."

In other words, the second coming and the last judgment were supposed to have taken place in the lifetime of those who knew Jesus, i.e. by the end of the first century. This didn't happen: Ergo, either Jesus wasn't divine or the Gospel of Matthew misreported his words. So, which is it, Kathy?

 

[hamelekim]

Kurious kathy said:

Well in Mattew Chapter 24 is everything Jesus said about the end of time and his return.

Well, that's not entirely true. In Matthew 16:27, 28 Jesus says:

"For the Son of man is to come in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Then he will repay every man according to his works. Truly I say to you, there are some sanding here today who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming into his kingdom."

In other words, the second coming and the last judgment were supposed to have taken place in the lifetime of those who knew Jesus, i.e. by the end of the first century. This didn't happen: Ergo, either Jesus wasn't divine or the Gospel of Matthew misreported his words. So, which is it, Kathy?

Or you are misinterpreting what coming into his kingdom means, or one or more of those people is still alive.

Specifically, Jesus won the Battle when he was crucified on the Cross and rose on the 3rd day, which would be the beginning of his spiritual kingdom.

 

[Pardalis]

4. Earthquakes will increase. We have seen a large increase in earthquakes in the last 20 years.

Really?

Do you have any source for this?

1. Global economic collapse

When will this happen?

2. Disease will sweep the world. This is something that all international organizations are saying is only a matter of when not if.

Maybe never, also.

3. 7 year peace Deal with Israel. Haven't seen this one yet, but once it happens we have 7 years left.

What do you mean "we have 7 years left"? Left for what?

4. One man will rise up who will confirm the peace deal, who will be looked on with wonder by the rest of the world.

5. This man will perform wonders and miracles.


So looking at that list. You can make some real stretches to explain some of that, but a lot is extremely difficult to ignore.

When you really start to look at the signs we see all of them right now, and it's really strange that they are all happening now.

So who's the man?

 

[hamelekim]

Really?

Do you have any source for this?

One source

http://earth.webecs.co.uk/index.htm
The data for the chart comes from http://www.dlindquist.com/

Below is a graph showing how the number of all magnitude earthquakes has grown over recent years. Although we are primarily concerned with long term trends for larger magnitude earthquakes in this report, it is worth noting the trend as it applies to all earthquakes - whether large or small, over a 30 years period or so from the mid-1970s. However, this trend needs to be understood in relation to the increase in seismographs. Certainly, in the last 25 years, more lower intensity earthquakes have been noticed because of a general increase in the number of seismograph stations across the world and improved global communications. This increase has helped seismological centres to locate many small earthquakes which were undetected in earlier decades. Therefore, an upward trend is not unexpected in the graph, although the rise in the number of large earthquakes will be of more significance to our assessment of the trend. By limiting the range of earthquakes being counted in this report to magnitude 7 or above, it means these earthquakes can easily be identified by a limited number of seismographs, and we have ensured that any increase in frequency for these larger earthquakes cannot be down to the increase in overall detection rates in this 25-year period, as all these larger earthquakes are able to be easily detected with fewer seismograph stations.

Further,

DATES FROM & TO PERIOD NO. EARTHQUAKES (Mag. > 6.99)
--------------------------- ----------- ------------------------------
1863 to 1900 incl 38 yrs 12
1901 to 1938 incl 38 yrs 53
1939 to 1976 incl 38 yrs 71
1977 to 2014 incl * 38 yrs 136 (to Jan. 2009) predict >180 in total.

When will this happen?

We are seeing precursors for it right now. Consider that if the US and other countries had no moved when they did we would have had a systemic collapse of the world economy. It remains to be seen if they will actually stop it from happening.

Maybe never, also.

Every quote I have seen from scientists who study these pandemics are not as positive as yourself. Again if it happens you will just pass it off as statistical.

What do you mean "we have 7 years left"? Left for what?

If you read the Bible you would know about the 7 year period where the world is ruled by a single man, called the Anti-Christ. At first people love him, and he seems to do no wrong. We see all sorts of signs and wonders from him, plus there are natural disasters, disease, etc...

Half way through his rule, he goes to Israel desecrates the temple, which will be rebuilt btw, and set himself up to be worshiped as God. He will then cause everyone to receive a mark in their forehead or hand, that they cannot buy or sell unless they have this mark. Anyone who has this mark has forsaken God.

He then begins to kill Christians around the world before moving against Israel to destroy it. At this point while he is attacking with his forces Jesus returns to Earth and with a word defeats them.

I'm surprised you are arguing about Christianity when you know nothing about it.

So who's the man?

The Anti-Christ.

 

[Pardalis]

One source

Always a red flag.

http://earth.webecs.co.uk/index.htm

There's no author, no name attached to this analysis. Where does it come from?

The data for the chart comes from http://www.dlindquist.com/

Doesn't look like a legitimate scientific seismologist, looks a bit amateurish.

http://heavenawaits.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/quakes.jpg

Every quote I have seen from scientists who study these pandemics are not as positive as yourself. Again if it happens you will just pass it off as statistical.

Well, we seem to have survived this far, and we've never been so clean and aware of sanitation, germs and viruses as today.

If you read the Bible you would know about the 7 year period where the world is ruled by a single man, called the Anti-Christ. At first people love him, and he seems to do no wrong. We see all sorts of signs and wonders from him, plus there are natural disasters, disease, etc...

I'm an atheist. I have no interest in the Bible. You made some claims about the real world, I was just curious if you could back them up with facts.

The Anti-Christ.

Got a name?

 

[Greediguts]

If you read the Bible you would know about the 7 year period where the world is ruled by a single man, called the Anti-Christ. At first people love him, and he seems to do no wrong. We see all sorts of signs and wonders from him, plus there are natural disasters, disease, etc...

Oddly enough, I had just begun spending some time reading Revelation. Could you please tell me what verse in Revelation uses the title "Anti-Christ"?

Half way through his rule, he goes to Israel desecrates the temple, which will be rebuilt btw, and set himself up to be worshiped as God. He will then cause everyone to receive a mark in their forehead or hand, that they cannot buy or sell unless they have this mark. Anyone who has this mark has forsaken God.

So you don't see this as a reference to Roman coins? I'm sure your aware that any buying and selling would involve people handling these coins which would have images of emperors imprinted upon them along with titles declaring their divinity...or do you think 666 (or 616 which the earliest texts show) does not imply Nero?

 

[Safe-Keeper]

1. The Israeli people will be spread across the world (This happened, but it was before it was written down)

2. The Israeli people will be brought back to Israel and their language will be Hebrew (This happened last century)

Granted.

3. Christianity will wane in popularity. Look at the massive decrease in Church going and Bible believing Christians in the last 50 years.

I'd be very surprised if the Church managed to remain stable for 2000 years - of course there'll be increases and decreases in its popularity. Yes, currently a small number of Americans may be taking Christianity less seriously, but does it mean anything in the big picture, and hasn't such things happened before? Scandinavia used to be strongly religious, but has been very secular for a good while now. How come no one interpreted that as an End Times sign?

4. Earthquakes will increase. We have seen a large increase in earthquakes in the last 20 years.

We probably have several times since the time the prophecy was written. Also, I believe the exact text says "there will be great earthquakes", not that "there will be more earthquakes than before". What defines a "great earthquake" - something we've not seen before in magnitude, in which case we by definition haven't seen any, or just huge ones, in which case there have been many since the prophecy was written down.

5. The whole falling away from Christianity leads to a host of "immoral" behavior which is listed in the NT.

Morals are ever-changing, always with at least one faction decrying the change. Nothing new here.

1. Global economic collapse

Why didn't the world end in the 1930's?

2. Disease will sweep the world. This is something that all international organizations are saying is only a matter of when not if.

Again, this, too, has happened several times, with some close calls recently (bird flu ring a bell).

3. 7 year peace Deal with Israel. Haven't seen this one yet, but once it happens we have 7 years left.

4. One man will rise up who will confirm the peace deal, who will be looked on with wonder by the rest of the world.

5. This man will perform wonders and miracles.

OK, I'll watch out for a diplomat with magic powers.


I'm still not impressed, and given that I've read the Bible and know that Jesus is 2000 years overdue, I remain of a firm opinion that either He didn't exist, or you've been stood up.

Matthew 24:34
'I tell you the truth: this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.'

Guess what, the generation passed away 2000 years ago and still no Son of Man.

Oddly enough, I had just begun spending some time reading Revelation. Could you please tell me what verse in Revelation uses the title "Anti-Christ"?

None of them.