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Spontaneous self-combustion

To those who say that a flat piece of mirror could not concentrate the necessary heat to ignite the shirt, you are probably correct. But if you read the entire thread, according to Gayle:
The mirror that was broken was double-sided, one side being a magnifying mirror. It's possible that the piece of mirror in question was a magnifyer.
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This case may actually fuel the arguements for the Spontaneous Combustion crowd, in their eyes anyways. Playing Devil's Advocate, I could say that the possibility of sunlight and a shard of mirror catching a shirt on fire is extremely unlikely for a variety of reasons...not that SHC is more likely of course. And as previously stated, people aren't bursting into flames every day. What about people who work with glass? In fact how often is something like this blamed for causing a normal house fire? Ever? I've searched the web a little and found nothing (but certainly this has occurred?).

Even if we do accept that the sun and mirror could have ignited your shirt, then how do we explain the deep 4th degree burns?

Perhaps this is a case of "weak" Spontaneous Combustion that was extinguished in the nick of time!!!?? Your 4th degree burns are the kind of thing the SHC crowd will grasp at.

No, I do not believe you spontaneously combusted, but so far that explanation isn't tooooo much crazier (or freakish) than any others I've yet heard. It would actually "explain" both the cause of the fire, and the mysterious burns. Um...I guess...

Now, I do like the "shirt had some kind of oil/chemical buildup and was ignited by something electrical, perhaps even before going outside" arguement. Or maybe an ember from a neighbors chimney floated down onto your porch. I know I know...warm summer morning. Static electricity from the freshly washed shirt? You said you welcomed any ideas no matter how outlandish.

Fascinating discussion.
 
POOF! Dragonrock rocks!

Huntsman, we did spend time discussing cologne. I used it. But there was time for the alcohol to evaporate before I dressed.

After experimenting tonight, I'm convinced my favorite shirt was actually an oil saturated rag, eventhough it looked and smelled perfectly clean and fresh.

But first my arguments for believers in SHC is: OW! Burns hurt, ya dang fools. They hurt badly. Very badly. The fourth degree burns didn't hurt, that's true. Someone said I should have holes in me and, indeed, I did. The scars -- after years of healing and fading and some cosmetic scar removal treatment -- are not all that big. But at the time, the entire area around them was burned and discolored, from waist to shoulder blade and from side to side.

Second and third degree burns hurt like HELLFIRE! I speak with authority on this subject.

For a living person to burn to cinders, with their own body fat and meat as fuel, they would have to be so drunk that they were as good a dead anyway. Drugged. Knocked on the head. Something. Otherwise the pain would have them flapping around, rolling on the ground, doing anything to stop the pain.


Gayle Plays With Fire

I experimented tonight. Safely. But this is as far as I go until my fire expert helps me burn a chicken, or maybe a 20 lb turkey, which would offer more fuel. Here's my first experiment. It consisted of burning 4 inch squares of paper and fabric.

We have a fireplace with an insert. The insert is similar to a cast iron stove. It sits in the fireplace and out onto a stone platform. It has a glass door. If you don't know what I'm talking about, just think of a cast iron stove that burns wood.

I let the fire burn down to glowing embers. I raked them smooth in the bottom of the stove. Think of charcoal for a barbeque, with the charcoal glowing red.

Supplies include burnables, tongs, metal bowl half full of water, fire extinguisher last approved in 2002, one Plucky Female Scientist, kind of like the one who wore high heels in the desert sand in THEM! or the one who showed a bit of shoulder and got the truth out of the sailor about the Giant Octopus in IT! Came from Beneath the Sea. Who says girls didn't have role models?

My four inch burnable squares include ...

--a piece of newspaper

--a piece of typing paper.

--a shiny paper cash register receipt that's made out of some sort of coated stock

--a scrap of brand new cotton fabric from a sewing project (never worn or used, washed in cold water, no detergent, and dried in the dryer on hot)

--a clean rag that had been oil-soaked at one time. The rag looks and smells perfectly clean and I would wipe my face on it without hesitation.

I opened the stove door and waited for the embers to glow red from the air flow and then I laid the piece of newspaper on the coals. It slowly turned brown, the edged curled, a hole appeared in the center, and it lazily caught fire and burned to ashes in about 90 seconds. The flames were low and slow moving. I closed the stove door and waited for the ashes to disappear, which took another three minutes.

I repeated the performance with the typing paper and got almost identical results, give or take a few seconds.

I repeated the performance with the cash register receipt. POOF! The paper exploded in the firebox before I could even lower my eyes to the watch. I looked at the watch, looked at the fire, looked at the watch and by then there was no visible sign of the receipt. From POOF to ashes took maybe one second and from ashes to disintegrating particles up the chimney took maybe two seconds.

I burn paper in the firebox all the time and I've never seen anything like that before. I'm nervous now.

Using the tongs, I place the 4 inch square of never used or worn, but washed and dried, cotton into the fire box. It lays there for 83 seconds and then begins to smoke. At 192 seconds it bursts into flames with a whooshing sound, the flames immediately die down and the fabric burns for 24 seconds, then goes out although it's still on the coal bed. It remains mostly intact. After a total of five minutes, I lift out the remains and place them in a metal bowl filled with water. It smokes as it's lifted, but little hiss or steam is produced when it is placed in water. Boring.

Again using tongs, I place the freshly washed and clean smelling, but formerly oily, rag on the coals. POOF! It immediately bursts into high flames, it burns fast and hot for 5 seconds and then slows a bit, flaming for 63 seconds. The flames dies out, but the cloth is still intact and it smolders and continues burning with red sparks throughout, retaining it's shape, but folding in on itself at the edges as it turns to black ashes. After a total of five minutes I attempt to lift it out of the fire box with tongs and it disintegrates into particles when touched. Within another minute, there's no trace of it.

At this point, I feel creeped out. Those black ashes look and smell all too familiar. They're the right color, the right shade of black, the right shape and consistency. I felt a burst of heat on my face as the fabric POOFed and burned. That wasn't true with the other burnables, even the receipt that POOFed and disintegrated.

This may be fanciful, but the ashes looked oily. They looked the way my back looked after the fire and before I jumped in the shower.

Right now, I'm thinking of all the fabrics that touch my skin after I apply body lotion. My entire wardrobe of fine cotton, silk, cashmere, and a few dead polyesters is probably nothing more than a heap of oily rags waiting to combust.

After seeing the way that rag burned, first the POOF and then the way it stayed intact, I can see how and why I was burned so badly, so quickly. Yes, it remains weird that my body burned, but it no longer seem extraordinarily weird to me.

How did my clothes catch on fire? That's just an ordinary mystery. My shirt caught fire somehow, eventhough I swear there was no open flame or heat source nearby.

Witnesses make mistakes. All the time. They swear on stacks of bibles, they say they believe their own eyes and ears. I don't.

Maybe there was some ... something ... that I failed to notice that ignited my shirt. Just because I didn't notice it, it doesn't mean it wasn't there. It was just something unknown at this time.

I do know this ... that four inch square burned like hellfire. I won't be lighting that pillowcase inside my house, not even in the firebox. We're going to have to wait for the rain to stop. Then we'll do it outside, with full fire protection designed by a pro. I'm betting the chicken will glow with blue flames. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

Is anyone still skeptical on the idea of a freshly laundered -- but soaked with hidden oil -- shirt acting as a torch? Dragonrock gets the credit for that one! I'm convinced.

Just wish I knew what ignited me.
 
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Wonderful! This is perhaps my favorite thread ever...a mystery, proposed solutions, experiments...I love it! Of course I realize you suffered great pain in the process. Thank you for sharing this story.
 
schplurg said:
Wonderful! This is perhaps my favorite thread ever...a mystery, proposed solutions, experiments...I love it! Of course I realize you suffered great pain in the process. Thank you for sharing this story.
Click to expand...

I wanna second that. No one is taking disagreements personally, nor jumping to conclusions... just looking for the truth and enjoying the search.

THIS is why I love skeptics (you buncha grumpy old cynics you)
 
Gayle said:
or the one who showed a bit of shoulder and got the truth out of the sailor about the Giant Octopus in IT! Came from Beneath the Sea.
Click to expand...

I think it was a bit of leg she showed. And a stethoscope. Do you have a stethoscope? Ok, I'll shut up :blush:


El_Spectre said:
I wanna second that.
Click to expand...

Thirded. I wonder if this thread should perhaps be moved under the Forum Spotlight...?

THIS is why I love skeptics (you buncha grumpy old cynics you)
Click to expand...

They're not grumpy cynics, they're curmudgeons :randi:


Kudos to Gayle for such a thorough contribution :thumbsup:
 
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Gayle said:
Witnesses make mistakes. All the time. They swear on stacks of bibles, they say they believe their own eyes and ears. I don't.
Click to expand...

Your experiment and conclusions you drew from it are awesome, but that little bit of text right there makes you my hero.
 
Gayle, I'm actually glad you got results like that from your experiment. I only had one incident to draw from, so it's nice to get some confirmation.

Still, it sucks that this discussion only came about because you got badly burned.
 
The Truth Is Out There ... and it's rational

This conversation has been enormously meaningful and helpful to me.

Last night, I suffered the heebie-jeebies for a couple hours, but by this morning I had things back in perspective. The incinerated chicken will have to wait until the weather outside permits testing in a safe manner. That little 4 inch square of rag POOFed and flamed hotly. I'm glad I didn't try with a whole pillowcase right off the bat. I'd have more than heebie-jeebies after that!

Right now, I'm looking at the lotions and potions I use on a regular basis. Oil-free skin hydrating products are available, but they cost more. I'm thinking they might be well-worth the extra expense. I'll put some on another small scrap of brand new cotton cloth, let it set and then toss it on some hot coals to see if it really is worth the money.

If the local fire department is interested, I'd like to get them involved in testing and reporting on the hidden dangers of oily residue in clean clothes. It might be good enough for a feature story in the local newspaper. I'll leave spontaneous human combustion out of it, thank you. I know the reporters and the editor and they are a pragmatic bunch. Keeping a child or two from getting burned is more in accord with their idea of a feature story.

This File is still open because there's no explanation for how the shirt caught fire. But that's minor. The X-File portion -- Gayle's SHC-- I hereby marked closed ... for me, anyway. It's still open for anyone who wants to keep looking at it.

I want to thank everyone who posted here, asked questions or offered suggestions. It was all helpful and fun.

I'd like to see some Challenge application self-tests go like this, but I suppose that really is fanciful thinking. When I was young (before age 20) I believed in the paranormal. More accurately, I wanted to believe. I wanted explanations for weird experiences and strange phenomenon. My science education was severely lacking.

Critical thinking was actively discouraged except by a few renegade English Lit & Comp teachers. I stumbled across an article about Ray Hyman, psych prof at the University of Oregon, and my eyes were suddenly opened. Finally, when I was a junior in college, some critical thinking was finally introduced. But not much. Whatever thinking skills I have were developed on my own, outside of school.

I then found a teacher in psychologist Dr. Albert Ellis, who urges people to use the scientific method to think about themselves, other people and life conditions.

It's unfortunate that instead of learning critical thinking skills and the scientific method in science classes, I got it from English teachers and psychologists. But at least I got it.

The truth is out there ... and it's rational. Let's keep spreading the word.


Gayle
 
My appreciation to you Gayle as well, for some great raw science with attitude, the right stuff for sure! The fact that you recognized the smell is convincing by itself that you (and Dragonrock) figured out why the heat was so intense.

The question of why Gayle makes such a good torch as well as a great SkepChick may be the way to think about the last part of the problem. Perhaps it had something to do with the great shape you were in. We know that fat can burn but perhaps lean can be just as good a fuel source with the right conditions.

What would these conditions be?
  • Lots of near skin surface capillary blood flow as a result of the recent shower and the body acting to cool itself down?
  • The blood being hyperoxygenated because of Gayles good athletic condition?
  • A relatively high ratio of hyperoxygenated blood to tissue due to a much lower fat content than average? In this situation more fat might have slowed things down by acting as an insulator.
  • An optimum concentration of electrolytes, again the result of an above average athletic condition?

I don't think an experiment is going to answer any of these questions. (ethical issues) The questions may all be the result of an above average ratio of fat to grey matter between my ears anyway. The people most likely to have relevant experience would probably be front line medics or doctors. If anyone has seen healthy, prime of life flesh burning in a sustained way it would be medics.

I feel creepy and incredibly sad just thinking that all through. :(

ETA.. While I was posting this Gayle was announcing "Gayle's SHC-- I hereby marked closed" That is certainly more than good enough for me.
Thanks again Gayle
 
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Gayle, wow. I think you've done an amazing job at analysing this. And I think that if the fire brigade will look at it, that would be a very good thing. You don't appear to be the only one this has happened to, though the descriptions are often odd, narratives almost designed to point to the paranormal as the only solution:
(under "Survivors of static flash fires/events")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_human_combustion

I'm sure some would be happier with a grounded, reasonable explanation for what happened to them.


Gayle said:
Right now, I'm thinking of all the fabrics that touch my skin after I apply body lotion. My entire wardrobe of fine cotton, silk, cashmere, and a few dead polyesters is probably nothing more than a heap of oily rags waiting to combust.
Click to expand...

That's got me pondering. I use a lot of oil-based products because my skin dries out quickly without them. I had always assumed any that got on my clothes would wash out.

And your approach has also made me want to go back over some of my own weird experiences, though none are as traumatic as yours. I've never thought of them as paranormal, and the realisation that seeing, for me, truly isn't believing made me more of a skeptic than I'd previously been. Although I know there were rational explanations and I came up with some possibilities, I want to narrow it down further. Thank you.

I think maybe scepticism really comes into its own not simply when challenging the damaging claims of psychics etc. but in helping people understand their weird experiences. Most of those I know who strongly believe in the paranormal do so because of experiences like mine happening to themselves or friends and family, but they quite often don't seem to have thought another explanation is remotely possible. It’s not the experience itself, I think, but what tools you have to understand it.
 
I had to google "Adam and Jamie" to find out who they are. Mythbusters! No, I never considered it. I don't watch the show and don't know how it works.

I think we're all agreed I didn't self-combust. The shirt combusted. The shirt had been exposed to oils repeatedly throughout the years, then washed with other clothing that were similarly exposed. The detergent would act as an emulsifyer. The oil particles would be evenly distributed throughout the wash.

The piece of rag that poofed up in the stove had been washed many times since being exposed to oil. It did not appear oily in any way. It burned fast and hot and in a way that I'd call vaporous. It flamed differently than the other fabric and the newspaper and typing paper. The coated grocery receipt flamed vaporously, too. Poof, it was gone.

I don't use dryer sheets. I'm going to get some and put them on a bed of coals. Fresh ones and used ones and maybe some that have been washed. Maybe I'll expose some scraps of fabric that have never been near oil to the dryer sheets and see what happens to those scaps in the fire.

Science marches on.
 
There was black volcanic glass on the shelf. Any quartz crystals?
Ten am, June, sun just appearing over a mountain. Forest Service. Obsidian.
I'm guessing Oregon or Washington?

75 deg F and enough sunlight from a shard of mirror to ignite a light coloured cotton shirt within seconds?

No. I can't believe that. We need another ignition source.

What of the two witnesses? The neighbour ladies? They were on the scene in seconds so must have seen what happened outside. What did (do?) they have to say about it?
 
Oregon. No quartz crystals.

My neighbors didn't see me ignite. Their attention was captured by the spectacle of a bare naked lady screaming and dashing around the front yard like a lunatic. They didn't know what had happened, just that it had to be something to get such an extreme reaction out of me.

There are no witnesses to the actual ignition, not even me. I felt the heat, but I didn't see a thing.
 
Gayle, did your neighbours see the remnant of the shirt which you had left outside? Was it still burning when they arrived?
If so, did they try to put it out?
 
The neighbors may have glanced at the ashes on the front walk. I know I did as soon as I got out of the shower and made sure I was no longer on fire. But I don't know what they did. It was too hectic and emotional. It's precisely the kind of situation that makes eye witness reports less than reliable.

My own memory has to be viewed as less than reliable. I was in pain, bathed in adrenaline and then shot up with painkillers. I say I'm sure I looked at the ashes as soon as I got out of the shower. That memory is as clear as a bell. I even remember which towel I was holding in front of me as I went out to view the shirt. I can see it clearly in my mind's eye. Trouble is, the towel I clearly see me holding over my chest ... it's only a few years old. The fire took place more than a decade and a half ago. So much for witness recall of traumatic events.
 
Gayle- forgive me if this seems rude, but I've got to ask.
Is it credible that your memory of the day is wholly unreliable?
For instance is it plausible that you were burned by something you have somehow suppressed the memory of? I can't test that- but you can, by comparing your memories with the recall of your family,your neighbours and doctor. If you are going to write this up after fifteen years, can you get their versions first, without prompting and see how they compare with your own? I have been surprised by how differently people recall events I was quite certain of.

You appreciate that all I have is an unwitnessed account of what is an improbable event. Like you I do not think people spontaneously ignite.
Supposing all you have said is the truth as you remember it, we still have to explain the ignition event. A fragment of mirror seems inadequate to me, but so far it's all we have.
 
Is it credible that your memory of the day is wholly unreliable?
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I was wondering when someone would get around to that!

If we're going to look at the event skeptically, then we have to call my memory into question. It would be irrational and unscientific to take my memory of events for gospel.

So, please, don't worry. I don't perceive your question as rude at all. It's necessary.

Regarding witnesses ... My husband and I talked about this in the last few days. His memory of the event is much more tramatic than mine. I don't feel traumatized, although I did for the first 6 months. He can't talk about it without getting emotional.

He remembers the ash particles on the front walkway. The shirt was disintegrated by the time he first looked at it. In my first post, I said it happened 15 years ago. He says it was closer to 17+ years ago. That's the major difference in our memories.

At the time, he searched through the house looking for the source of ignition. He found nothing. But that was after spending several hours getting medical treatment. We both recall that he brought me home and then he spent another hour getting prescriptions and supplies.

For the first few days I was not up to doing anything. I was doped up and still in pain and could only manage to sit in a few positions without making the pain worse. When taking my memories as evidence, one does have to take into account that I was taking narcotic painkillers for at least a week.

The neighbor lady witnesses are not available to testify. One was merely a neighbor, not a friend. She got divorced and moved away. The other lady, who was a dear friend and who took charge until my husband arrrived home, passed away a year ago July, at age 91. She suffered dementia for about 5 years before her death, so even if she was available to testify, her testimony would be unreliable. She was a most positive person and once she got an idea in her mind, there was no getting it out. So even before the dementia crept in, I would not consider her a reliable witness.

That leaves the scars as evidence and the medical records (if they are available after all this time.) The scars are very real, but faded over the years.

As for a repressed memory ... I find that highly unlikely, but obviously, if I had repressed a memory, I wouldn't realize it, would I?

My husband assures me that according to his memory there were no heat or flame sources. He was home within 15 minutes or so of the event. He hadn't been gone long before he was called home. Did I get into some kind of traumatic mischief that I've repressed? No. Don't think so.

Besides, the evidence indicates that "recovered" memories are even more unreliable than plain old normal memories. The idea of repressed memory would take us far out into dangerous territory.

This is the territory we've covered so far, and I have to tell everyone ... I really appreciate this discussion. It's been tremendously helpful in aiding me to look back at my weird event and I enjoyed experimenting to explain the weirdness.

When this conversation started, I was sure the mirror had been the ignition source. I've told many people that. Now, I think that's unlikely.

When the conversation started, I had no explanation for the shirt burning like it did and for my lower back to be so badly burned that the flesh burned blue.

After experimenting with the patches of paper and fabric, I'm sold on the idea that my shirt had become saturated with invisible oil particles, just like the piece of rag I burned. The shirt was freshly laundered and so was that clearning rag. They both combusted in a wild and crazy fashion. The scrap of new, unused fabric burned slowly.

So, indeed, the lesson of this whole thread is not only that memories can't be trusted, but that seemingly logical conclusions can't be trusted either if the results can't be replicated.

On the other hand, experimentation may show that the completely illogical answer -- that my shirt was actually an oil saturated rag primed to combust into hot vaporous flames -- is the correct one. Burning the different fabric scraps convinced me.

As far as my memory goes, I would not rely upon it. I can tell you that I experienced an event that had all the earmarks of what is called spontaneous human combustion. POOF! in flames and deep burns. I do remember seeing the blue flames shooting out of my lower back. But ... (I do! I remember!) ... but are we going to trust my memory?

The scars are there. The are the single undeniable fact in the entire story. But, no, even I don't trust my memory. And that's a good thing to know about myself.

Gayle
 
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