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Spontaneous self-combustion

I'm just advising caution to balance those who have suggested you go public in some larger sense with this.
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I share your concerns. I'm not running off to the media with the amazing story of my shirt catching fire. Now take some deep breaths and relax.
 
After a little googling, I found some interesting info, which I present for your amusement if not your edification.

Spontaneous combustion of cotton soaked in oil occurs, but not when there is adequate ventilation, such as standing outside.

From http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/prevention/flammable_general.html:

What is spontaneous combustion?

Spontaneous combustion occurs when a material in contact with air can heat up sufficiently (without an outside heat source) to burn. The oils in some wastes and rubbish can slowly react with oxygen in the air. This reaction creates heat that can build up over time if the wastes are left undisturbed. When the heat level in a "self-heating material" is high enough (i.e., when the temperature reaches the autoignition temperature), a fire may start.

For example, rag soaked with vegetable oil in the bottom of a pail could heat up enough to cause spontaneous combustion of the rag. However, the same oil-soaked rag would not be expected to heat up on a clothes line because there would sufficient contact with moving air that would prevent heat from building up. An oil-soaked rag would not heat up if it were in a tight bale because it would not have enough air. Similarly, wet or improperly cured hay stored loose (i.e., not baled) in a barn is susceptible to heating up enough to cause spontaneous combustion. In the cases of spontaneous combustion of hay, grain and oil seeds, the source of heat comes from the action of microorganisms (e.g., bacteria, fungi) on materials having the right moisture and temperature conditions. Damp charcoal, meals (i.e., ground seeds), materials (fabrics, rags, cotton, etc.) soaked with paints containing drying oils are some other examples of materials have a spontaneous combustion hazard.
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According to Nathan Schiff, cotton can spontaneously combust at 95C, but even then only when it can't otherwise dissipate the heat:

Cotton, which is combustible, starts to decompose when the surface temperature reaches approximately 95C and in the process, generates its own heat. This decaying process is accelerated when the fabric is tightly folded and placed in a confined area. Because it is hot, moist, and has no possible way to dissipate its heat, the oxidation continues to build upon itself, until the garment reaches the critical surface temperature and bursts into flames.
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MIT tried the Archimedes Death Ray experiment and caused flash ignition of timber, meaning that they used mirrors to focus the sun's rays on to their ship and produced a temperature of approx 600C.

They used a lot of mirrors though. Not just a little broken fragment.

Are you sure it happened they way you remember? It just seems... well, you know, this is a sceptics' forum, after all... :)
 
Well, no, logical muse, I'm not sure it happened the way I remember it. That has been one of my main points. That's why I've mentioned memory expert Elizabeth Loftus several times.
 
A visit to the doctor...

Yesterday, I visited the doctor who treated my burns. He took the time to look through my medical records (while an outer room full of patients waited for his attention.) Our converstion was short. On a day when patients aren't waiting, I may be able to get more answers from him.

We looked at only the emergency visit on the day of the incident, not at any of the follow-up records where the deep burns were the major concern. He didn't have time yesterday, especially after I told him why I was asking.

The medical records show that my memory is, indeed, faulty. I had the time and the severity of the burns wrong. The incident took place on July 6, 1988. I placed it in June, 15 years ago. My husband's memory of the time was better than mine.

The burns were much worse than I remembered. My husband is again correct there. He remembers the incident as being far more traumatic than I do. I didn't look at my back in the mirror for weeks. The first sight of it had been enough. It was bad. The doctor confirms that.

There were no second degree burns. The chart describes me as "charred." I was lucky to have so little scarring.

He described the whole thing as "bizarre" and "weird" and "unexplained." He laughed when I told him it had come up in a discussion of spontaneous human combustion, then he looked at me sternly for a moment. "No, no, no," I said quickly. "It's a discussion at the James Randi Educational Foundation forums. It's from a scientific point of view. It's for science."

He said to tell you all that I "looked like a barbequed steak." If I recall, that's what he said when it happened.

It's his belief, from the way I was burned, that there was something in the shirt that caused it to vaporize in flame all at once and burn me uniformly. He doubts it was a cotton shirt at all, from his memory of the burn. But I still think it was. We once again talked about ignition. Still a mystery.

This brings us back to where we began. The doctor has been in practice for at least 30 years. To him, it was a bizarre injury at the time and remains so after all these years. From his point of view, it had an excellent outcome. No infection with minimal scarring, considering the extent and severity of the injury.

From the way I as burned, he says he does not believe that I backed up into a stove or other heat source or that my shirt smoldered. My injury did not fit that pattern. My back was barbecued evenly. He said it would have to have happened quickly, all at once, because I would have immediately felt heat/pain and swatted it or got it out in some other way. His parting words were, "It's a mystery."

Sometimes, we just don't get good answers for weird events ....

Gayle
 
Gayle said:
It's his belief, from the way I was burned, that there was something in the shirt that caused it to vaporize in flame all at once and burn me uniformly. He doubts it was a cotton shirt at all, from his memory of the burn.
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Aha! Someone agrees with my idea that the shirt was not 100% cotton! I'm leery of the "oil soaked rag" hypothesis because the shirt was freshly laundered. The purpose of soap, in part, is to break up oils. Unless the shirt was really oily, I'm leery to believe that it would cause the burns that it did. Slightly oily cotton should probably just smolder. With a very oily cotton shirt, I would expect that you would have rather large yellow-orange flames that burn somewhat slowly as they consume the fuel.

But if the shirt was synthetic or a synthetic blend, the shirt could just go "poof" with blue flames and "melt" somewhat onto your skin and cause deep bruns and the fire would consume the shirt almost totaly. This is what you described as happening.

If the shirt was actually 100% cotton, then it had some substance on it (probably other than just generla oil type substances) that made it burn the same way sythetic fabrics do. :)
 
Certainly the experiment with the cash register paper seems similar to the extremely fast flash burning of the shirt- which might have been entire but for the wet hair. It's starting to sound like an explosion...
But a rapid burn worsens the ignition problem. Flash burning something takes a much higher radiation intensity than starting a slow burn. Where do we get this energy?
Gayle- you said the shirt label was unusual. Do you think there is any chance at all of tracking down the manufacturer? It would be very interesting if there had been other such occurrences. You said you wore it a lot- do you have any pictures of you wearing it? You might spot some detail that jogs your memory of the manufacturer.
 
I'm late to this thread, I know, but here's a quick observation in re the shirt. "Permanent press" shirts are usually all or partly polyester. An all-cotton shirt labelled as "permanent press", especially one you bought in 1978, would probably have been treated with methanol.
 
I would not expect any methanol (or other alcohol / glycol) treatment to linger after the shirt was washed 500 times.
I agree the exact nature of the shirt is important to the story and it would be nice to knowmore about it.
Now I probably could find the manufacturer of a shirt I wore, 10 years after the fact, but that's because I buy all my shirts in the same place.

I doubt Gayle (or any woman) can be expected to do that. Supercool if.
 
The Shirt ....

There's no way to track the shirt. Remember ... the shirt was at least a decade old when it burned up in 1988. All that was left of the shirt was a single button on a scrap of fabric the size of your thumbnail. I don't shop at a particular store or stick with a usual brand.

There was nothing extraordinary about the shirt at all. It was just a nice, soft shirt that washed up well and was of high enough quality that it still was in good shape after being worn and washed repeatedly.

I quite agree that there was some property in the shirt that caused it to burn fast and hot. It didn't smolder. There wasn't time. It flashed into flame and was ripped off over my head, all in a matter of seconds. I was "charred" as a result.

The way to investigate the combusting properties of fabric is to replicate burning conditions. But after my experience with 4 inch squares in a cast iron fireplace insert, I don't recommend that anyone do that unless all safety precautions are firmly in place.

To me, the shirt is not the extraordinary part of the experience. Okay, the shirt was highly flammable. It was manufactured before it was required by law that clothing meet flame retardant standards. It could have been contaminated by body lotions or some other substance that made it burn fast and hot. It's unusual, but it's not extraodinary.

The extraordinary part of the experience is that the shirt -- and I -- caught fire at all. If the mirror (even a magnifying mirror) is not an acceptable ignition source, then we're left with a complete mystery ... one that I have no idea how to explain.

Now, once again I will state that (despite the title of my first post) I do not claim to have spontaneously combusted. That's complete silliness.

I posted in this thread because I experienced something that could be said to look like spontaneous human combustion, and it didn't fit the standard skeptical explanations -- a fat boozehound catches themselves on fire and roasts like a dead pig in a blanket.

I don't know if we'll ever be able to explain what happened to me. When this discussion started, I thought I'd been ignited by the sun in the mirror. The mystery was how I was burned so badly and so quickly. The experiment of burning scraps of fabric answered that for me. POOF! That's what happened to me. POOF!

But now I'm not so sure it was the mirror. But if it wasn't the mirror, then it was something else, as yet undiscovered. Just because it's undiscovered doesn't mean there's not a perfectly natural explanation for what happened. It just means we don't know what it is ... yet.
 
Gayle, fellow posters,

This is the thread that made me join the forum. The persistent search for a rational explaination here has really impressed me.

I only felt like posting, because I've been looking for an ignition source which might have been present. What do you all think of peroxides as a possible ignition source?

Having taken a lot of chemistry and organic chemistry classes, I remember seeing ordinary, over the counter hydrogen peroxide stored well away from every other chemical in the storage closet. I've been doing some reseach, and it seems that an organic peroxide can cause som organic chemicals to burn in the absence of any other ignition source.
Most undiluted organic peroxides can catch fire easily and burn very rapidly and intensely. This is because they combine both fuel (carbon) and oxygen in the same compound. Some organic peroxides are dangerously reactive. They can decompose very rapidly or explosively if they are exposed to only slight heat, friction, mechanical shock or contamination with incompatible materials.

"Organic peroxides can also be strong oxidizing agents. Combustible materials contaminated with most organic peroxides can catch fire very easily and burn very intensely (i.e., deflagrate). This means that the burn rate is very fast: it can vary from 1 m/sec to hundreds of metres per second. Also the combustion rate increases as the pressure increases and the combustion (or reaction) zone can travel through air or a gaseous medium faster than the speed of sound. However, the speed of combustion in a solid medium does not exceed the speed of sound. "
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http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/organic/organic_peroxide.html

Here's another relevant quote from another part of the same site.

Never mix organic peroxides directly with any accelerators or promoters. A violent explosion may result. Thoroughly mix the accelerator or promoter in the resin mixture before adding the organic peroxide.

It is dangerous to dissolve peroxides in very small amounts of monomer (such as styrene) before adding them to the resin mixture. These "small quantity" mixtures can undergo rapid polymerization giving off a lot of heat. This may result in a fire.
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http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/prevention/orgperox.html

So, is it possible that you used or came into contact with hydrogen peroxide, or some other cleaning chemical which may have contained a peroxide?
 
I've had a drink but I'm going to break my golden non-posting rule as I think that ImaginalDisc could be onto something here.

I wonder if there could have been some sort of organic fuel (as in oil etc.) on the shirt, mixed with a peroxide oxidiser (hydrogen peroxide from hair bleach or benzoyl peroxide for example) which were catalysed by UV rays from the sun (focused by the mirror) which set up a fire triangle and caused combustion.

I hope that's legible and makes sense. :D
 
Whoa! I use peroxides. Benzoil peroxide on my face. Hydrogen peroxide to lighten my eyebrows. Hydrogen peroxide mixed with baking soda as a deodorizer, including in the laundry. Hydrogen peroxide to disinfect earrings.

I use lots of peroxide. Back in 1988, I had a pair of beloved old dogs who smelled like old dogs. They slobbered and licked. I used a solution of water, peroxide and baking soda to clean up their drool.


ImaginalDisc, it's a great pleasure to hear that this thread inspired you to join the forums. Welcome!

Gayle
 
Gayle said:
Whoa! I use peroxides. Benzoil peroxide on my face. Hydrogen peroxide to lighten my eyebrows. Hydrogen peroxide mixed with baking soda as a deodorizer, including in the laundry. Hydrogen peroxide to disinfect earrings.

I use lots of peroxide. Back in 1988, I had a pair of beloved old dogs who smelled like old dogs. They slobbered and licked. I used a solution of water, peroxide and baking soda to clean up their drool.
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You’re welcome Gayle.

I had hoped that might by the case. The danger posed by most peroxides is pretty low, when the concentrations are low, but I wonder if any of the chemicals you were using had any peroxides in high concentration, or particularly nasty peroxides. Over the counter bottles of hydrogen peroxide are 3% hydrogen peroxide only, or there abouts. We'd have to be really thorough about checking each product out.

According to the UNECE,

Pharmaceutical products ready for use, e.g. cosmetics, drugs and medicines, which
are substances manufactured and packed in packagings of a type intended for retail
sale or distribution for personal or household consumption, which would otherwise be
active substances intended for laboratories and experiments and for the manufacture
of pharmaceutical products, are not subject to the provisions of ADR.
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http://www.unece.org/trans/danger/publi/adr/adr2001/English/Part2-2.pdf

Now, I’m only twenty three, but I don’t recall detailed warning labels on most cosmetic products, warning “DANGER: Contains tert-BUTYL HYDROPEROXIDE, do not mix with reducing agents!” That particular chemical is used in bleaching apparently, because it’s corrosive at any concentration.

http://www.chemicalland21.com/specialtychem/perchem/TERT-BUTYL HYDROPEROXIDE.htm

The Hazardous Materials Disposal Manual I have (Hey, it was on sale for $0.99 in the clearance bin, I had to buy it!) lists a huge number of organic peroxides, that have lots of available oxygen for reaction, pose a danger as corrosives, and even as explosives. If you still have the bottles of the peroxide containing products you were using, I could look them up, and see if any posed a risk at those concentrations. If you could even just name the products, I might be able to find records of what they used to contain. Then maybe we can ask an organic chemist what they think of this theory.

P.S. I dug this bit up,

Incompatibilities
Hydrogen peroxide reacts with oxidizable materials, iron,
copper, brass, bronze, chromium, zinc, lead, manganese, and
silver. Contact with organic materials may result in spontaneous
combustion.
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from here http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/MHMI/mmg174.pdf

They're a government agency, and their stated mission is:

The mission of the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR), as an agency of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, is to serve the public by using the best science, taking responsive public health actions, and providing trusted health information to prevent harmful exposures and disease related to toxic substances.

ATSDR is directed by congressional mandate to perform specific functions concerning the effect on public health of hazardous substances in the environment. These functions include public health assessments of waste sites, health consultations concerning specific hazardous substances, health surveillance and registries, response to emergency releases of hazardous substances, applied research in support of public health assessments, information development and dissemination, and education and training concerning hazardous substances.
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It also seems that some commercial hair bleaching products contain as much as 40% hyrdogen peroxide, which could pose a serious danger if handled improperly.
 
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peroxides

ImaginalDisc, most of the peroxide I use is of the 3% variety, which is the kind you buy at the grocery store in a brown bottle. Even that low dose was mixed with water for use as a deodorizer.

I've used benzoil peroxide creams in doses of 2%, 5%, and 10%. It's likely that I was using a 2% solution at that time, but I cannot swear to it. I use it only on my face and I'd be very careful not to get it on the shirt because it bleaches the color out of fabric in the same way clorine bleach does.

I use standard hair lightening peroxide. The label says hydrogen peroxide, no percentage. It's called a "developer." If it's mixed with a colorant, the mixture becomes warm to the touch. But, again, I'd be very careful not to get this on a garment because the garment would be ruined.

However, the 3% solution of hydrogen peroxide does not harm fabrics. I would spray it directly on fabric at times. After the fabric dried, would there be a chemical residue left behind?
 
Gayle said:
ImaginalDisc, most of the peroxide I use is of the 3% variety, which is the kind you buy at the grocery store in a brown bottle. Even that low dose was mixed with water for use as a deodorizer.

However, the 3% solution of hydrogen peroxide does not harm fabrics. I would spray it directly on fabric at times. After the fabric dried, would there be a chemical residue left behind?
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Well, hydrogen peroxide has a boiling point of 141 degrees C, and according to the wikipedia article on the subject

Hydrogen peroxide, if spilt on clothing (or other flammable materials) will preferentially evaporate water until the concentration reaches sufficient strength, then clothing will spontaneously ignite. Leather generally contains metal ions from the tanning process and will often catch fire quite quickly.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide

So, that might be it right there. I'll spend this evening looking up the other chemicals.
 
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I checked the entire list and I didn't use any of the exact products described.

I've used plain 409 cleaner and I've used L'oreal Preference and Clairol hair coloring in shades darker than those listed. I'm fairly certain I never used any of the other hair coloring brands.

Thinking back, there's no way I can say I accurately remember what products may have been under my kitchen sink or in my pantry. I'm loyal to cosmetic brands, but when it comes to cleaning supplies I tend to buy whatever's on sale and also has an agreeable scent.

I could have been using any of the clorox products and Vivid, as a brand, sounds familiar and I seem to associate it with an orange and blue box. But I don't know if that's because I used it or because I remember ads.

Because of the old slobbering hounds, I was using quite a bit of 3% hydrogen peroxide around the house at that time. It worked, it was cheap, and it didn't have a cloying fragrance. Those are my three criteria for any cleaning product.
 
Gayle said:
I checked the entire list and I didn't use any of the exact products described.


Because of the old slobbering hounds, I was using quite a bit of 3% hydrogen peroxide around the house at that time. It worked, it was cheap, and it didn't have a cloying fragrance. Those are my three criteria for any cleaning product.
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M'k. I think this peroxide lead is very promising. Especially considering how liberally you seemed to be using it. I'm going to do some more research tonight, and post tommorrow.

Thanks for sharing your tale of pain again, Gayle.
 
I know I said I'd post today, but I spent the day doing a lil' more reseach, and getting last minute JesusMas shopping done. I'll post what I've dug up tommorrow.
 
Happy Holidays & Bah! Humbug ... you choose

Don't worry, Imaginal. There's no hurry. This has waited 17 years. It will wait a while longer. Have fun with your Xmas plans.

I choose Bah! Humbug! It's makes this time of year gloriously restful. However, I have to explain to people that I am not a Jehovah's Witness. I just happen to think black bean soup and thick bread make excellent Xmas fare. Never any takers for dinner at my house this time of year.

Gayle
 
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