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[Split]Moon hoaxes - split from: Mars Voyage too Soon?

err.... Let me guess?? You like all the attention you're getting?? No, you don't believe that anyone walked on the moon, and your doing your everything you can to prove that that is so. Despite the fact that everyone here has proven that you are dead wrong. So please carry on, old boy. You're fooling no one but yourself. By The way, what do I win??

I Am He

Anybody who cannot read properly isn't worthy of any prizes, in my opinion! But I would have thought that you might have considered an opportunity to prove yourself capable of making a meaningful contribution as offering sufficient gratitude. Alas!
 
I don't know who, if anybody, is still following this thread, but I plan on posting the challenge at Post #787 as a new thread unless somebody takes it on soon!
We did address it, you just seemed to disagree with it, without being very specific.

If you have a point to make, then why don't you do the calculations yourself and then let us review them?

Your point of contention seems to be how far was Aldrin standing away from Armstrong in that photo, and whether you get the same answer by figuring it from the apparent size of Aldrin in the image, or by analyzing the shadows. Now I would expect large errors in trying to base it on the shadows, because you can't tell with any degree of accuracy that the shadow of Aldrin's head lies at the same distance from him as Armstrong, and the slope of the terrain would play a major part in the answer.

But if you feel you can score a point with it, let's see you spell it out.
 
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We did address it, you just seemed to disagree with it, without being very specific.

If you have a point to make, then why don't you do the calculations yourself and then let us review them?

Your point of contention seems to be how far was Aldrin standing away from Armstrong in that photo, and whether you get the same answer by figuring it from the apparent size of Aldrin in the image, or by analyzing the shadows. Now I would expect large errors in trying to base it on the shadows, because you can't tell with any degree of accuracy that the shadow of Aldrin's head lies at the same distance from him as Armstrong, and the slope of the terrain would play a major part in the answer.

But if you feel you can score a point with it, let's see you spell it out.

I don't recall anybody even attempting to calculate the distance between the astronauts based on a shadow analysis!

I essentially did do the calculation for the distance between the two astronauts derived from the apparent FOV at Post #764, by way of correction of Thabiguys flawed attempt, and I indicated at Post #787 that this seems wholly inconsistent with the apparent distance as derived from a shadow analysis. I could make some reasonable assumptions, and post a detailed shadow analysis, but I expect that you, and other people like you, would simply retort that the assumptions are wrong. My preference is that you, and anybody else still interested, try the calculations yourself, because I believe that you will quicky realize that for the two distances to reconcile, even adopting very conservative assumptions, the slope of the ground between the two astronauts would have to be significantly different from what can be observed from the photo or otherwise deduced. In fact, I suspect that some people here have already performed the analysis and concluded as much, but elected to keep quiet rather than acknowledge that there does indeed seem to be an unexplainable anomaly.

Given that you have both demonstrated and justified greater confidence in your own analytical and mathematical skills than mine I can think of only one possible outcome if I were to post a detailed calculation. In the interests of drawing a conclusion one way or the other from the Aldrin photo I think it far better that you perform your own analysis, adopting assumptions that you're comfortable with. I'm sure it wouldn't take up very much of your time, and I reckon you'd probably enjoy it too, assuming you haven't had a go already!

Now, if you believe that Thabiguy got it right at 2.7m you've sure got a hell of reconcilitaion task ahead of you with the shadow length!
 
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Do you understand why I'm seeking a conclusive reconciliation of the seeming anomaly in the famous Aldrin photo?

No...not if one takes a reasonable optics class--there isn't any anomaly that isn't explainable.

I guess you won't respond to the points reiterated in my post made by several people in this thread. I am sorry, but this indicates you really don't have the desire to address the reasonable data.

Just answer this one:

How come the dust kicked up by the lunar rover's wheels follows perfect ballistic paths consistent with 1/6 earth gravity and no atmosphere?

glenn
 
Hindmost, Southwind has accepted that we DID go to the moon. He just thinks that some pictures are anomalous.

How he reconciles the two is beyond me.
 
No...not if one takes a reasonable optics class--there isn't any anomaly that isn't explainable.

Well, either you've taken such a class, and can provide such an explanation, or you haven't, but you know a man who has, who can do so, or you haven't and you don't know anybody else who has (I think that covers all relevant permutations!). Regardless, can we expect an explanation from you any time soon?!

I guess you won't respond to the points reiterated in my post made by several people in this thread. I am sorry, but this indicates you really don't have the desire to address the reasonable data.

It doesn't 'indicate' anything, not least what you think it does. It shows I'm interested in something different from what you think I am, that's all.

Just answer this one:

How come the dust kicked up by the lunar rover's wheels follows perfect ballistic paths consistent with 1/6 earth gravity and no atmosphere?

Probably because those lunar rovers were on a body orbiting the Earth where the gravity is about 1/6 Earth's gravity and there's no atmosphere. You can call it the Moon, if you like! Do you have any other tricky questions you'd like help with?!

Now, shall we get back to photography?! :rolleyes:
 
Hindmost, Southwind has accepted that we DID go to the moon. He just thinks that some pictures are anomalous.

Ah, you've learned to read at last. Congratulations!

How he reconciles the two is beyond me.

You mean to say that you can't imagine a scenario, say, whereby a perfectly doctored image for National Geographic wouldn't be considered the order of the day!
 
Now, if you believe that Thabiguy got it right at 2.7m you've sure got a hell of reconcilitaion task ahead of you with the shadow length!
Please stop misrepresenting what I said.

I explicitly said that the 2.7m result was wrong and that assuming FOV 49.2 deg, picture width 52 mm and visor width 280 mm, the distance between the camera and Aldrin's visor is about 3 m.
Using the most recent information posted in this thread, i.e. picture width of 55 mm and FOV of 49.25 deg, the distance computes to 3.12 m, as everyone can verify.
I also explicitly said the the distance between the astronauts' feet is different than the distance between the camera and Aldrin's visor. If the distance between the camera and the visor is 3.1 m, the distance between the astronauts' feet can easily be 3.6 m or more. This does not validate Groves' result of 3.85 m, because Groves was attempting to calculate the distance between the camera and Aldrin's visor, not the distance between the astronauts' feet.

This simple fact also renders this note of yours:
That puts it at 4m. This is not overly inconsistent with Groves' 3.85m!
as pure nonsense, as yet again you ignore that Groves' result does not refer to the distance between the astronauts' feet, which is the distance that you attempted to derive from the shadow.

Regardless of whether you deliberately try to mislead others, or whether you simply have trouble understanding what I have now emphasized for the third time, I would appreciate if you kept your misrepresentations out of my mouth. Thank you.
 
Please stop misrepresenting what I said.

I explicitly said that the 2.7m result was wrong and that assuming FOV 49.2 deg, picture width 52 mm and visor width 280 mm, the distance between the camera and Aldrin's visor is about 3 m.
Using the most recent information posted in this thread, i.e. picture width of 55 mm and FOV of 49.25 deg, the distance computes to 3.12 m, as everyone can verify.
I also explicitly said the the distance between the astronauts' feet is different than the distance between the camera and Aldrin's visor. If the distance between the camera and the visor is 3.1 m, the distance between the astronauts' feet can easily be 3.6 m or more. This does not validate Groves' result of 3.85 m, because Groves was attempting to calculate the distance between the camera and Aldrin's visor, not the distance between the astronauts' feet.

This simple fact also renders this note of yours:

as pure nonsense, as yet again you ignore that Groves' result does not refer to the distance between the astronauts' feet, which is the distance that you attempted to derive from the shadow.

Regardless of whether you deliberately try to mislead others, or whether you simply have trouble understanding what I have now emphasized for the third time, I would appreciate if you kept your misrepresentations out of my mouth. Thank you.

Hey, great to see you're still showing an interest Thabiguy. I apologize if I've misrepresented you. I can assure you it wasn't intentional, but nonetheless 2.7m vs 3.1m is neither here nor there so far as the seeming anomaly goes. As for distance between the camera and Aldrin's feet - remind me please - what relevance has that to anything?

So, if I understand you correctly Thabiguy, you're saying that Groves, at 3.85m between camera and visor, is way over the top. In other words, the two astronauts were standing significantly closer than 3.85m. OK, I'm good with that, so why don't you just go on ahead now and reconcile that with the shadow length, or is the 'uncertainty' over the shadow length because of the many, incalculable unknowns simply a non-starter?!
 
Hindmost, Southwind has accepted that we DID go to the moon. He just thinks that some pictures are anomalous.

How he reconciles the two is beyond me.

I have read that but I guess I interpreted it as Southwind still having doubts and not really believing 100%.

glenn
 
Hey, great to see you're still showing an interest Thabiguy.
I still have no desire to post here; I only resort to it when it seems really necessary. You shouldn't take this as a sign that I am going to participate. Nevertheless, in response to your direct inquiries, I will clarify:
As for distance between the camera and Aldrin's feet - remind me please - what relevance has that to anything?
It's not the distance between the camera and Aldrin's feet, it's the distance between the astronauts' feet: between Armstrong's feet and Aldrin's feet. If you're going to do an estimate based on apparent shadow length (starting from one astronaut's feet) compared to where another astronaut appears to be standing (with his feet), you are estimating the distance between their feet.
So, if I understand you correctly Thabiguy, you're saying that Groves, at 3.85m between camera and visor, is way over the top.
Yes.
In other words, the two astronauts were standing significantly closer than 3.85m.
No. If you're talking about where the two astronauts are standing, with their feet, I believe that distance, considering that they are leaning forward and the camera protrudes forward even further, can easily be 3.6 m or more. I cannot call this significantly closer than 3.85 m.
why don't you just go on ahead now and reconcile that with the shadow length, or is the 'uncertainty' over the shadow length because of the many, incalculable unknowns simply a non-starter?!
The latter is the case. The reflection in the visor is way too distorted to draw meaningful conclusions about objects' relative positions. To illustrate, when one looks at the reflection in the visor, it seems unambiguous that when one takes the line connecting the two module pads visible in the reflection, the SWC experiment (the rightmost vertical object) is on the same side of that line as Armstrong, and on the opposite side than Aldrin and the sun. From looking at the reflection, it seems inconceivable for the SWC experiment to be on the same side of that line as Aldrin, and on the opposite side than Armstrong. And yet, that is actually the case. What seems clear and unambiguous may not be true, due to the extreme spherical distortion of the reflection, which is greater than one might suspect.

Although the shadow seems to fall near Armstrong, we know that the angle between the optical axis and the shadow is greater than 25 degrees (because shadows near the right border of the whole photograph still fall to the left). Quick and dirty estimate of the actual shadow deviation, if it appears about 30% from the center of the visor towards its edge, gives some 35 degrees (a rough figure, not intended to be exact). Assuming 35 degrees of deviation, assuming distance 3.6 m between the astronauts' feet, the shadow would need to be 4.4 m long for its tip to fall directly to Armstrong's left, where it would be some 2.5 m away from Armstrong, not 1.5 m. If Aldrin is 1.9 m tall, the sun elevation is 15 degrees and the terrain slope is 5 degrees, his shadow would be about 5.2 m, or reaching further 0.8 m behind Armstrong's left. Would that be consistent with the reflection in the visor? I sure can't say that it would be inconsistent, which makes me uninterested in your challenge.

If I wanted to do a proper shadow analysis, I would start with properly accounting for the spherical distortion of the visor (after properly accounting for the distortion caused by the visor being near the upper edge of the photograph). To answer your question of why I'm not going to do that: because I honestly don't see the point of spending all that effort.
 
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Anybody who cannot read properly isn't worthy of any prizes, in my opinion!

So far your opinions have not held any water.







But I would have thought that you might have considered an opportunity to prove yourself capable of making a meaningful contribution as offering sufficient gratitude. Alas!

I will gladly make a meaningful contribution as soon as you do. So far none of your so called meaningful contributions have been right. As a matter of fact they have been all wrong.

Oh? about my reading properly: "I apologize if I've misrepresented you." So please stop acting like a little boy and stop with those immature remarks of yours.
 
It's not the distance between the camera and Aldrin's feet, it's the distance between the astronauts' feet: between Armstrong's feet and Aldrin's feet. If you're going to do an estimate based on apparent shadow length (starting from one astronaut's feet) compared to where another astronaut appears to be standing (with his feet), you are estimating the distance between their feet.

OK, let's start with your 3.12m between camera and visor, and assume it's correct. Allowing for, say, 150mm increase per astronaut for forward leaning and, say, 100mm for the camera projection (only as far forward as the imaging plane), that puts the astronauts' feet at something around 3.5m apart, give or take.

... so why don't you just go on ahead now and reconcile that with the shadow length, or is the 'uncertainty' over the shadow length because of the many, incalculable unknowns simply a non-starter?!
The latter is the case. The reflection in the visor is way too distorted to draw meaningful conclusions about objects' relative positions. To illustrate, when one looks at the reflection in the visor, it seems unambiguous that when one takes the line connecting the two module pads visible in the reflection, the SWC experiment (the rightmost vertical object) is on the same side of that line as Armstrong, and on the opposite side than Aldrin and the sun. From looking at the reflection, it seems inconceivable for the SWC experiment to be on the same side of that line as Aldrin, and on the opposite side than Armstrong. And yet, that is actually the case. What seems clear and unambiguous may not be true, due to the extreme spherical distortion of the reflection, which is greater than one might suspect.

I agree that the spherical distortion of the visors poses major optical problems, and I thank you for illustrating how extreme this can be. In fact, this photo , that you posted, makes the point equally well. When I first looked at the reflection in Aldrin's visor in this shot I thought it looked extremely odd, in particular the directions that the shadows follow across the visor compared to the directions across the ground. The more you study and analyse them, though, the more they make sense. I'm actually very pleased that you posted this photo, for reasons I'll come on to in a moment.

Having said all that, whilst relative positions of objects can be very difficult to establish just from studying a reflected image in the visor, what's not so difficult is when two objects, or reflections, coincide, or come very close to coinciding, as the distortion then becomes irrelevant. Let's take another look at this photo, for example (I note that this image is presented as a mirror image of the orginal, for some reason, possibly to re-create the image of Armstrong as if looking from Aldrin. I will continue to comment based on the original imagery). We can clearly see that Armstrong's right foot is planted very close to, if not right on, the intersection of the shadow of the LM strut and the broader shadow of another part of the LM that runs roughly perpendicular, forming a 'T'. We can actually clearly identify that position on this photo to within a few cm each way; the broader shadow being roughly the length of Armstrong's boot.

Fortuitously, I believe we can also identify reasonably accurately from the same photo the position where Aldrin was actually standing. We can see from the famous Aldrin photo that Aldrin is standing about a metre or so back from the Lunar Surface Sensing Probe (LSSP), and that he's standing in an obvious indentation, with his right foot fairly centrally planted within it and his left on the slope, close to a small rock. If we go back to this photo we can identify the indentation immediately to the left of the SWC as we look at the photo, level with a distance about 1/4 the distance up the SWC pole. The cross-hair reticule immediately to the left of the SWC marks an edge of the indentation. I believe the small rock/shadow is actually identifiable midway between the said reticule and a position about 1/4 distance up the SWC pole. Luckily, this photo was taken with the camera aiming very close to perpendicular to the line between Armstrong and Aldrin in the famous Aldrin photo, so we can take relative measurements directly from the photo without worrying unduly about inaccuracy due to perspective.

Now, taking the landing pads as 940mm diameter, as identified from this article, we have a quantified reference point. Going back to this photo, we can measure the diameter of the foremost landing pad as 21mm, which we know sits right next to the line between the two astronauts in the famous Aldrin photo. The distance between the mid-point of the 'T' shadow where Armstrong was standing, as identified above, and the position within the indentation where Aldrin's right foot was planted, also identified above, as measured from the photo is about 115mm. 115mm / 21mm x 940mm = 5.2m.

Now, in planning on reminding ourselves what the shadow analysis would derive, I realize I've made a grave error previously. In focusing on the image reflected in Aldrin's visor I mistakenly took Armstrong to be standing up-sun of Aldrin, whereas he was actually standing down-sun. This would, of course, given a downward slope in the lunar surface away from Aldrin towards Armstrong, give the effect of lengthening Aldrin's shadow and not shortening it, as I've previously assumed (I'm surprised nobody's picked this up, and pointed it out; or am I?! :rolleyes:). So, let's recalculate the ball-park distance as derived from a shadow analysis:

An astronaut standing 1900mm tall overall on a level lunar surface with a 15-degree sun angle would cast a shadow 7.1m long. Let's reduce Aldrin's overall height by, say, 300mm to allow for both the depth of the indentation in which he's standing (say 250mm) and a reduction due to forward leaning (say 50mm). That reduces the shadow length to around 6m. And let's assume an upward slope of, say, 3 degrees (we can see from this photo that the lunar surface appears to slope upwards from right to left, given that Aldrin's forward-facing body is clearly very close to the true vertical, and we can measure that slope by reference to the three cross-hair reticules towards the upper left of the photo (the vertical lines of which are parallel to the near-true vertical plane in which Aldrin is standing, so the horizontal lines of which must be very close to the true horizontal) as around 4mm in 73mm, i.e. 3 degrees). So, allowing for a reduced equivalent sun angle of 12 degrees instead of the actual 15 degrees gives us a compensating increase in the shadow length to 7.5m.

It would seem, therefore, that the actual distance between the two astronauts on the famous Aldrin photo lies somewhere within the range 5.2-7.5m. Whilst that's a large range, it's wholly inconsistent and entirely irreconcilable with the 3.5m calculated from the FOV above. Having identified this it seems more and more obvious, just by casually studying the famous Aldrin photo, that the position where Armstrong was really standing to take the photo, as determined by the position of the LM landing pad in the bottom of the photo, and the apparent distance away of Aldrin, that he most certainly was not standing where he is shown to be in the reflection. i.e. at the intersection of the 'T' shadow of the LM landing strut. A casual glance at this photo clearly confirms that to be the case, especially when you bear in mind that the image centre of Armstrong's camera was aiming well below Aldrin's right knee, which would have taken in far more of the lunar surface between Armstrong and the LM LSSP than the roughly two boot-lengths that we see in the famous photo.

In closing this particular post, there is one related anomaly that might well serve to contradict everything I've written above, but which, if so, raises similar questions:

Looking again at this photo, the relative lengths of the SWC pole extending below the fabric to the lunar surface and the shadow cast by that section of pole are 5mm and 6mm. Assuming a flat lunar surface that would require a sun angle of 40 degrees. In order for what we observe to be consistent with the actual sun angle of 15 degrees the ground would need to slope upwards in the direction of the shadow, i.e. in the opposite direction to the general slope of the lunar surface(!), at an angle of around 25 degrees (40-15), or steeper than 1:2! That is most definitely not the case, so we can only conclude that the 'sun angle' was far nearer to 40 degrees than 15 degrees. What could possibly account for that?!
 
So far your opinions have not held any water.

Should they?

I will gladly make a meaningful contribution as soon as you do. So far none of your so called meaningful contributions have been right. As a matter of fact they have been all wrong.

Contributions don't need to be right to be meaningful, provided they lead to something fruitful. Irrespective, I'd challenge you to show that they have all been wrong, but you neither could, nor, I suspect, would you have the wherewithall to attempt to do so, so I'll refrain.

Oh? about my reading properly: "I apologize if I've misrepresented you." So please stop acting like a little boy and stop with those immature remarks of yours.

I'm inclined to point out to you that there's a fundamental difference between reading properly and misinterpreting, but you're clearly prone to misinterpretation yourself, evidently, so, again, I'll refrain.

I sense you're an infant school teacher. Would that be correct?!
 
Personal attacks removed. Will you all please stop with the personal comments and stick to the issues under discussion..
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: brodski
 
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I know I am going to regret this, but I will respond one more time. Of course, I realize that it is a waste of time, as we've all seen that showing the silly claims wrong over and over and over and over and over again does not have the slightest effect, and intelligent readers of course understand that lack of experience with photography is not evidence for conspiracy. Even so, I will carry on with this waste of time once more, knowing full well that the next Southwind17's post will claim yet another irreconcilable anomaly. Of course it will.
Having said all that, whilst relative positions of objects can be very difficult to establish just from studying a reflected image in the visor, what's not so difficult is when two objects, or reflections, coincide, or come very close to coinciding, as the distortion then becomes irrelevant.
Correct.
We can clearly see that Armstrong's right foot is planted very close to, if not right on, the intersection of the shadow of the LM strut and the broader shadow of another part of the LM that runs roughly perpendicular, forming a 'T'.
We can do a little more than that. If we look carefully at Armstrong's left foot, we see that his leg does not end where the bright white of the spacesuit ends; it continues further down with his gray boot. It may be difficult to see, depending on the contrast of your monitor; the shadow of Armstrong's left foot will help you find it, originating from below the bright white part.
The same boot is of course also on Armstrong's right foot, meaning that he does not stand where the bright white ends (the center of the 'T'), but below that point, or closer to the sun. The right boot is not sufficiently discernible though, and all we can do is guess, using the picture of the other boot for reference, but it would seem that Armstrong's right foot is somewhere on the boundary of light and shadow (of the LM leg), slightly closer to the pad than the shadow 'T', but still close to the 'T'.
Of course, the perspective greatly compresses the shadows vertically, so it is difficult to say how much closer Armstrong's right foot is to the pad than the strut shadow.
I'm going to take a shot and say that in 5873, Armstrong stood approximately where the LM leg shadow goes thick just before it meets the strut shadow. That would be slightly closer to the pad than the shadow 'T', but still close to the 'T'. Lacking more accurate information, I guess this estimate is as good as any.
Fortuitously, I believe we can also identify reasonably accurately from the same photo the position where Aldrin was actually standing. We can see from the famous Aldrin photo that Aldrin is standing about a metre or so back from the Lunar Surface Sensing Probe (LSSP), and that he's standing in an obvious indentation, with his right foot fairly centrally planted within it and his left on the slope, close to a small rock. If we go back to this photo we can identify the indentation immediately to the left of the SWC as we look at the photo, level with a distance about 1/4 the distance up the SWC pole. The cross-hair reticule immediately to the left of the SWC marks an edge of the indentation. I believe the small rock/shadow is actually identifiable midway between the said reticule and a position about 1/4 distance up the SWC pole.
Correct.
Luckily, this photo was taken with the camera aiming very close to perpendicular to the line between Armstrong and Aldrin in the famous Aldrin photo, so we can take relative measurements directly from the photo without worrying unduly about inaccuracy due to perspective.
For the sake of the argument, all right, let's assume that it's perpendicular and the perspective distortion is relatively small. The properties of rectilinear projection then allow us to directly scale sizes.
Now, taking the landing pads as 940mm diameter, as identified from this article, we have a quantified reference point. Going back to this photo, we can measure the diameter of the foremost landing pad as 21mm, which we know sits right next to the line between the two astronauts in the famous Aldrin photo.
The width of the landing pad on the original transparency is 5.61 mm. But the landing pad is not directly between Armstrong and Aldrin. The end of the rod protruding from under it is about on the line between Armstrong and Aldrin.
So how far is the landing pad from the line connecting Armstrong and Aldrin? There are some good closeups of the pad and the rod, but the perspective distortion makes it difficult to estimate the distance. I decided to use 5902 to estimate that, given 94 cm landing pad diameter, the distance of the center of the landing pad from the line between Armstrong and Aldrin is about 130 cm, give or take a few cm.
Now, how far is the landing pad from the camera in 5873? Assuming FOV 49.25 deg, picture width 55 mm, the measured width of 5.61 mm of an object that is 94 cm wide corresponds to distance of about 10.1 m.
Now comes the important question: how wide would the landing pad be on the transparency, if it was directly on the line between Armstrong and Aldrin, i.e. 8.8 m from the camera, instead of 10.1 m? Our earlier assumptions allow us to make a straightforward calculation: it would be 6.44 mm wide.
The distance between the mid-point of the 'T' shadow where Armstrong was standing, as identified above, and the position within the indentation where Aldrin's right foot was planted, also identified above, as measured from the photo is about 115mm. 115mm / 21mm x 940mm = 5.2m.
The distance between the point where we assumed Armstrong to be standing and the rock in Aldrin's crater is some 24.5-25.5 mm on the transparency, depending on how we choose to measure. 24.5-25.5 mm / 6.44 mm x 94 cm = 3.58 - 3.72 m.
Now, in planning on reminding ourselves what the shadow analysis would derive, I realize I've made a grave error previously. In focusing on the image reflected in Aldrin's visor I mistakenly took Armstrong to be standing up-sun of Aldrin, whereas he was actually standing down-sun. This would, of course, given a downward slope in the lunar surface away from Aldrin towards Armstrong,
The lunar surface is sloped upward from Aldrin to Armstrong. Armstrong is standing higher than Aldrin.
give the effect of lengthening Aldrin's shadow and not shortening it, as I've previously assumed (I'm surprised nobody's picked this up, and pointed it out; or am I?! :rolleyes:).
The reason why nobody "picked this up" is because it is nonsense.
(we can see from this photo that the lunar surface appears to slope upwards from right to left,
No, we do not. What we see "sloping upwards" is the horizon. Horizon (if there are no nearby mountains) is approximately horizontal. Even Groves knows that. The horizon is "sloping upwards" because the camera is tilted. You can see the horizon continue on the right side of the module. Here you see it continue further to the right; the camera is not tilted this time.
given that Aldrin's forward-facing body is clearly very close to the true vertical,
Aldrin is standing generally upright, slightly leaning to his right.
and we can measure that slope by reference to the three cross-hair reticules towards the upper left of the photo (the vertical lines of which are parallel to the near-true vertical plane in which Aldrin is standing, so the horizontal lines of which must be very close to the true horizontal) as around 4mm in 73mm, i.e. 3 degrees).
Yes, the camera is tilted about 3 degrees.
So, allowing for a reduced equivalent sun angle of 12 degrees instead of the actual 15 degrees gives us a compensating increase in the shadow length to 7.5m.
Pure nonsense.
It would seem, therefore, that the actual distance between the two astronauts on the famous Aldrin photo lies somewhere within the range 5.2-7.5m. Whilst that's a large range, it's wholly inconsistent and entirely irreconcilable with the 3.5m calculated from the FOV above.
The last sentence is, ironically, correct.
Having identified this it seems more and more obvious, just by casually studying the famous Aldrin photo, that the position where Armstrong was really standing to take the photo, as determined by the position of the LM landing pad in the bottom of the photo, and the apparent distance away of Aldrin, that he most certainly was not standing where he is shown to be in the reflection. i.e. at the intersection of the 'T' shadow of the LM landing strut.
Baseless assertion.
A casual glance at this photo clearly confirms that to be the case, especially when you bear in mind that the image centre of Armstrong's camera was aiming well below Aldrin's right knee, which would have taken in far more of the lunar surface between Armstrong and the LM LSSP than the roughly two boot-lengths that we see in the famous photo.
Baseless assertion.
Looking again at this photo, the relative lengths of the SWC pole extending below the fabric to the lunar surface and the shadow cast by that section of pole are 5mm and 6mm. Assuming a flat lunar surface that would require a sun angle of 40 degrees. In order for what we observe to be consistent with the actual sun angle of 15 degrees the ground would need to slope upwards in the direction of the shadow, i.e. in the opposite direction to the general slope of the lunar surface(!), at an angle of around 25 degrees (40-15), or steeper than 1:2! That is most definitely not the case, so we can only conclude that the 'sun angle' was far nearer to 40 degrees than 15 degrees. What could possibly account for that?!
I will leave this one as an exercise to the readers. (Hint.)
 
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We can do a little more than that. If we look carefully at Armstrong's left foot, we see that his leg does not end where the bright white of the spacesuit ends; it continues further down with his gray boot. It may be difficult to see, depending on the contrast of your monitor; the shadow of Armstrong's left foot will help you find it, originating from below the bright white part.
The same boot is of course also on Armstrong's right foot, meaning that he does not stand where the bright white ends (the center of the 'T'), but below that point, or closer to the sun. The right boot is not sufficiently discernible though, and all we can do is guess, using the picture of the other boot for reference, but it would seem that Armstrong's right foot is somewhere on the boundary of light and shadow (of the LM leg), slightly closer to the pad than the shadow 'T', but still close to the 'T'.
Of course, the perspective greatly compresses the shadows vertically, so it is difficult to say how much closer Armstrong's right foot is to the pad than the strut shadow.
I'm going to take a shot and say that in 5873, Armstrong stood approximately where the LM leg shadow goes thick just before it meets the strut shadow. That would be slightly closer to the pad than the shadow 'T', but still close to the 'T'. Lacking more accurate information, I guess this estimate is as good as any.

I agree with this.

For the sake of the argument, all right, let's assume that it's perpendicular and the perspective distortion is relatively small. The properties of rectilinear projection then allow us to directly scale sizes.

The width of the landing pad on the original transparency is 5.61 mm. But the landing pad is not directly between Armstrong and Aldrin. The end of the rod protruding from under it is about on the line between Armstrong and Aldrin.
So how far is the landing pad from the line connecting Armstrong and Aldrin? There are some good closeups of the pad and the rod, but the perspective distortion makes it difficult to estimate the distance. I decided to use 5902 to estimate that, given 94 cm landing pad diameter, the distance of the center of the landing pad from the line between Armstrong and Aldrin is about 130 cm, give or take a few cm.

I can accept this.

Now, how far is the landing pad from the camera in 5873? Assuming FOV 49.25 deg, picture width 55 mm, the measured width of 5.61 mm of an object that is 94 cm wide corresponds to distance of about 10.1 m.
Now comes the important question: how wide would the landing pad be on the transparency, if it was directly on the line between Armstrong and Aldrin, i.e. 8.8 m from the camera, instead of 10.1 m? Our earlier assumptions allow us to make a straightforward calculation: it would be 6.44 mm wide.

The distance between the point where we assumed Armstrong to be standing and the rock in Aldrin's crater is some 24.5-25.5 mm on the transparency, depending on how we choose to measure. 24.5-25.5 mm / 6.44 mm x 94 cm = 3.58 - 3.72 m.

Well, this methodology does seem to stack up, at least to a degree, but I'll consider it further tomorrow and get back to you with my comments. In the meantime, have you tried verifying your calculated distance by reference to the height of Aldrin in that same photo?

The lunar surface is sloped upward from Aldrin to Armstrong. Armstrong is standing higher than Aldrin.

On what basis have you established this - because it has to slope that way in order for Groves' analysis to be wrong? Try this: place a straight edge between the rock that was close to Aldrin's left foot and the position where we're agreed that Armstrong's right foot was placed. You will see that it's pretty close to parallel with the horizon. Where's the 'slope'? If anything, it slopes downwards towards Armstrong slightly, which is consistent with your comment that Aldrin is 'slightly leaning to his right', i.e. leaning 'into' the slope, as one does!

The reason why nobody "picked this up" is because it is nonsense.

Yes, it seems equally as nonsensical as your assertion that the ground slopes the opposite way now, doesn't it!

No, we do not. What we see "sloping upwards" is the horizon. Horizon (if there are no nearby mountains) is approximately horizontal. Even Groves knows that. The horizon is "sloping upwards" because the camera is tilted. You can see the horizon continue on the right side of the module. Here you see it continue further to the right; the camera is not tilted this time.

Aldrin is standing generally upright, slightly leaning to his right.

See above.

Baseless assertion.

No, I didn't expect much in the way of a meaningful response to this obvious anomaly!

Baseless assertion.

Ditto.

I will leave this one as an exercise to the readers. (Hint.)

Well I get this image deriving a sun angle around 23 degrees. What do you get?
 
Well, either you've taken such a class, and can provide such an explanation, or you haven't, but you know a man who has, who can do so, or you haven't and you don't know anybody else who has (I think that covers all relevant permutations!). Regardless, can we expect an explanation from you any time soon?!

I have taken optics classes and could do the associated analysis. However, I am not going to waste my time doing more detailed calcs as there is no real purpose.


It doesn't 'indicate' anything, not least what you think it does. It shows I'm interested in something different from what you think I am, that's all.

To what end??? That is what confuses me.

Probably because those lunar rovers were on a body orbiting the Earth where the gravity is about 1/6 Earth's gravity and there's no atmosphere. You can call it the Moon, if you like! Do you have any other tricky questions you'd like help with?!

Not meant to be tricky...its just the fact that the moon rover was actually on the moon. Makes all the CT stuff moot.

Now, shall we get back to photography?! :rolleyes:

again...to what end? Are you expecting to invalidate the entire collection of pictures with one photo?


glenn
 
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OK guys, I've considered the photos posted by Thabiguy further, and after the cunning deployment of a few carefully placed Post-it notes, a high-school ruler and protractor I am now entirely satisfied that all of the apparent anomalies previously identifed are fully explainable.

Thanks for hanging around Thabiguy, I believe our stand-off is now ended, and I'll happily concede that you're the sharp-shooter in this particular town!

Now, where's my horse?! ;)
 

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