[Split]Moon hoaxes - split from: Mars Voyage too Soon?

[Southwind17]

Just take a picture. Look at it. You were not in charge.

Someday you will find a map.

This map will be printed on soft paper.

It will show you great treasure.

You need to get some sleep!

 

[Southwind17]

I take it nobody's up for the challenge then (Post #787), or can explain why there are no lunar photos showing astronauts' faces!

 

[ArmillarySphere]

"What is Hasty Generalization"

I'll continue with Logical Fallacies, Alex. At this rate we'll get them all!

 

[Belz...]

You might have noticed that I HAVE OPENLY ACCEPTED NOW THAT MAN WALKED ON THE MOON! By definition, therefore, I am no longer questioning the NASA records and information.

I take it nobody's up for the challenge then (Post #787), or can explain why there are no lunar photos showing astronauts' faces!

Pants on fire.

 

[Southwind17]

Pants on fire.

I think this is the second time, at least, that you've accused me of lying. Do you remember reading this:

I still have doubts about whether man actually walked on the Moon, but only to the extent that Richard Dawkins, for example, has doubts that god doesn't exist, i.e. he cannot conclusively prove it.

Whether some of the NASA photos are faked could well be, but not necessarily would be, a completely different, though related, matter. My main interest is in the approaches and techniques that can be taken in attempting to show such photos to be faked or genuine, and not so much now what the implications might be should any fakery or doctoring be proved or disproved.

This latest post of yours simply serves perfectly to prove my earlier observation about you:

You just don't take the time to follow threads properly do you!

Incidentally, it's pretty evident from all of your posts, including other threads, that you have very limited, if any, constructive contribution to make to any intelligent discussion. It seems to me that the total sum of your 'contribution' to this Forum amounts to keeping your head below the parapet by siding with the masses and chipping in with sarcy, smart-arse comments when you find the time, that serve only as slave to your own self-gratification.

 

[Belz...]

Whatever, Southwind. Have your cake and eat it, too.

 

[Shrinker]

I take it nobody's up for the challenge then (Post #787), or can explain why there are no lunar photos showing astronauts' faces!

You can see Aldrin's face in AS11-40-5875. Would take your challenge but very busy right now.

 

[sts60]

I take it nobody's up for the challenge then (Post #787), or can explain why there are no lunar photos showing astronauts' faces!

I can explain it: your claim is wrong.

Apollo 11. A couple of photographs showing Buzz Aldrin's face: AS11-40-5875, AS11-40-5951 (see attached detail)
Apollo 17. A couple of photographs showing Gene Cernan's face: AS17-134-20386 (see attached detail), AS17-134-20387.

There may be others. I just searched for " face" from the image libraries. Took me about five minutes.

 

[Southwind17]

You can see Aldrin's face in AS11-40-5875. Would take your challenge but very busy right now.

I can explain it: your claim is wrong.

Apollo 11. A couple of photographs showing Buzz Aldrin's face: AS11-40-5875, AS11-40-5951 (see attached detail)
Apollo 17. A couple of photographs showing Gene Cernan's face: AS17-134-20386 (see attached detail), AS17-134-20387.

There may be others. I just searched for " face" from the image libraries. Took me about five minutes.

Thanks for these guys. Interesting that in AS11-40-5875 Aldrin's facing into the sun but his visor's up. Any idea why he would have elected to keep his visor down in the famous down-sun AS11-40-5903 shot?

No rush on the reconciliation Shrinker - any time to suit you. Thanks

 

[Shrinker]

Interesting that in AS11-40-5875 Aldrin's facing into the sun but his visor's up.

Is it? Is it really? Is Aldrin's face really dark orange?

 

[defaultdotxbe]

Is it? Is it really? Is Aldrin's face really dark orange?

you can also clearly see the rim of the visor is down (in both pictures)

 

[sts60]

Compare to the training photo 69-H-670 from A11: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/ap11-69-H-670.jpg

Also, the notes for AS11-40-5875 state:

...Journal Contributors Owen Merrick, Brian McInall, and Markus Mehring call attention to the fact that, in the high-resolution version, we can see Buzz peering over at Neil. In 5874 Buzz is facing the flag and saluting; but, by the time Neil takes 5875, Buzz has turned his body slightly - and his head a great deal more - to look over to see if Neil has taken the picture, possibly having lowered his right hand in the interim. Normally, the high reflectivity of the gold visor would keep us from seeing Buzz's face but, as Mehring notes, in this case "his face is directly illuminated by the sunlight from the front and at a right angle to the observer's point of view, so it literally shines through the visor, especially because he's sticking his head forward. At different viewing and illumination angles and with his head deeper inside the helmet and less brightly illuminated, reflections off of the visor that would wash out anything behind it. But in this case we're lucky." Journal Contributor Harald Kucharek has created a two-frame movie consisting of frames 5874 and 5875 which clearly shows Buzz turning his torso slightly between frames, but without moving his feet. Note, in particular, the change in his knee positions. Both the TV record and the 16--mm film show Buzz turning in Neil's direction twice during this interval.

 

[Southwind17]

Is it? Is it really? Is Aldrin's face really dark orange?

you can also clearly see the rim of the visor is down (in both pictures)

Sorry; my mistake. I assumed the visor had to be up to see the astronaut's face. I figured the visors were like mirror reflectors, as seems to be the case in AS11-40-5903. Why is Aldrin's face not visible in this shot, given he's facing away from the sun?

 

[Shrinker]

Sorry; my mistake. I assumed the visor had to be up to see the astronaut's face. I figured the visors were like mirror reflectors, as seems to be the case in AS11-40-5903. Why is Aldrin's face not visible in this shot, given he's facing away from the sun?

Because he's facing away from the sun. The sun is not on his face. His face is not brightly illuminated. His face is dark.

 

[CurtC]

The other day I saw a picture of a car facing the sun, but the sun visors were up! And I saw another picture later, of a car facing away from the sun, but the sun visor was down! How do you explain these anomalies?

 

[Southwind17]

Because he's facing away from the sun. The sun is not on his face. His face is not brightly illuminated. His face is dark.

Now you can't have it both ways! Either the lunar surface provides significant fill lighting or it doesn't. If it does, as seems to be the case, given the extent to which Aldrin is well lit in AS11-40-5903, then how come his visor is completely reflective, and none of his face is visible?

The other day I saw a picture of a car facing the sun, but the sun visors were up! And I saw another picture later, of a car facing away from the sun, but the sun visor was down! How do you explain these anomalies?

Why do you think that's an anomaly?

 

[PhantomWolf]

Now you can't have it both ways! Either the lunar surface provides significant fill lighting or it doesn't. If it does, as seems to be the case, given the extent to which Aldrin is well lit in AS11-40-5903, then how come his visor is completely reflective, and none of his face is visible?

Because his face is a lot darker than the reflection in visor. It works like a one way mirror, as long as the room behind the mirror is darker than the area outside the mirror, the glass appears to just be a reflector, but if the room behind the one way mirror is brighter then it can be seen through the reflection. Same thing here. When Aldrin's face is in the sunlight it is brighter than the reflection on the visor and it can be seen, when he's facing away, it's darker and can't be. Basic optics and lighting from Physics 101.

 

[Shrinker]

Now you can't have it both ways! Either the lunar surface provides significant fill lighting or it doesn't. If it does, as seems to be the case, given the extent to which Aldrin is well lit in AS11-40-5903, then how come his visor is completely reflective, and none of his face is visible?

SW I've already given you the benefit of the doubt once, but I have to wonder why you're making no effort to understand these simple concepts.

Tell me which part you don't understand...

Direct sunlight is significantly brighter than reflected moonlight.
In 5875 Aldrin's face is in direct sunlight.
In 5903 Aldrin's face is in reflected moonlight.
The moons surface appears brighter downsun than upsun.
In 5875 Adrin's visor is reflecting mainly upsun (darker) terrain.
In 5903 Adrin's visor is refecting mainly downsun (brighter) terrain.
Therefore for two different reasons the brightness ratio of Aldrin's face to the visor reflections is significantly lower in 5903.

You may also be surprised to learn that when you're wearing mirrored sunglasses, sometimes the girls can see where you're looking. So be careful out there.

 

[Southwind17]

Because his face is a lot darker than the reflection in visor. It works like a one way mirror, as long as the room behind the mirror is darker than the area outside the mirror, the glass appears to just be a reflector, but if the room behind the one way mirror is brighter then it can be seen through the reflection. Same thing here. When Aldrin's face is in the sunlight it is brighter than the reflection on the visor and it can be seen, when he's facing away, it's darker and can't be. Basic optics and lighting from Physics 101.

SW I've already given you the benefit of the doubt once, but I have to wonder why you're making no effort to understand these simple concepts.

Tell me which part you don't understand...

Direct sunlight is significantly brighter than reflected moonlight.
In 5875 Aldrin's face is in direct sunlight.
In 5903 Aldrin's face is in reflected moonlight.
The moons surface appears brighter downsun than upsun.
In 5875 Adrin's visor is reflecting mainly upsun (darker) terrain.
In 5903 Adrin's visor is refecting mainly downsun (brighter) terrain.
Therefore for two different reasons the brightness ratio of Aldrin's face to the visor reflections is significantly lower in 5903.

You may also be surprised to learn that when you're wearing mirrored sunglasses, sometimes the girls can see where you're looking. So be careful out there.

OK, I'll accept this as fact. Would the photo have looked much different had Aldrin had his visor up?

 

[Southwind17]

Would take your challenge but very busy right now.

The cross-hairs etched on the Hasselblad reseau plate definitely seem to be spaced at 10mm intervals (can't recall who suggested that here), as extension of those distances to the edges of the photos on this site puts those images at 52mm square. I'm not bothered whether you use 52mm or 55mm to calculate the FOV when you get around to taking up my earlier challenge. I don't think it will significantly affect the outcome.