Spain suppressing Catalan Indyref

[Craig B]

I would say that the shootings after the Easter Rebellion by the British Government was just as stupid as Madrid's handling of this, but yeah, it is
Intolerable Acts level stupid. Like the Intolerable acts, it is truning many moderates or those who were neutral in favor of Catalonian Indepdenence.

At least the Easter Rising was a violent act in which an estimated 485 people - more than half of them civilians - lost their lives. The separatists were charged with Rebellion, arms in hand.

But the Catalan events have been peaceful and democratic both in conception and execution. The separatists are to be charged with rebellion, ballots in hand.

This is crazy stuff. Imperialist centralism is an ideology that, notoriously, can infect even democratic states, and induce them to do extreme things.

Here's France 1961, in the face of Algerian separatist demonstration. Algeria, recall, was not governed as a colony, but as an integral part of the French Republic, so its loss was taken very seriously by the French government.

I hope that the ample possibilities of violence presented by Madrid's reaction in Catalonia will not become a reality.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Two comparisons are drawn, with the scottish referendum and the situation in Kosovo, but both are not really valid with regards to the Catalan situation.

The Scottish referendum was organized with the consent of the UK government and both sides were given ample time to present their cases. Whereas the Catalan referendum was organized without consent of the Spanish government and pretty much boycotted by the opposition, thus there is no way to know how much of the population really wants this.

The Kosovo situation did have the fact that before the referendum / independence movement started the Serbian government was actively suppressing the kosovans and showed no intent of stopping. Combined with the actions of Serbia in Bosnia and Croatia this prompted the EU and NATO to step in. Catalan on the other hand had liberties and autonomy Kosovo could only dream of and was in no way repressed.

While I do not support everything the Spanish government does, and I agree it would have been better to just ignore the referendum, I also do not agree that a single badly handled referendum should be considered a basis to tear a country apart and I agree with the EU stance that Catalan is not recognized as independent.

 

[Craig B]

... The Scottish referendum was organized with the consent of the UK government and both sides were given ample time to present their cases. Whereas the Catalan referendum was organized without consent of the Spanish government and pretty much boycotted by the opposition, thus there is no way to know how much of the population really wants this.

That would be better expressed like this: the Uk government permitted a referendum to take place in Scotland, and people of all opinions participated in it. The government's unionist interference was at the level of misinformation and propaganda, not violent or other physical impediments to the conduct of the operation.

I repeat, if the Spanish government is confident that there is a majority in Catalonia in favour of maintaining the Spanish Union, why not let the election go ahead, so that this supposed majority will be permitted to manifest itself?

If any offences have been committed by the organisers of the referendum, then there are courts and procedures for dealing with that, I am sure.

 

[applecorped]

A house divided cannot stand.

 

[Garrison]

I repeat, if the Spanish government is confident that there is a majority in Catalonia in favour of maintaining the Spanish Union, why not let the election go ahead, so that this supposed majority will be permitted to manifest itself?

Probably because they're afraid of a Brexit type situation, where people wind up supporting the Independence side for a hodge podge of contradictory reasons, or just to 'send a message' to the central government.

 

[Craig B]

Probably because they're afraid of a Brexit type situation, where people wind up supporting the Independence side for a hodge podge of contradictory reasons, or just to 'send a message' to the central government.

Are you saying, then, that Madrid's declared confidence, about popular support for Catalan secession being inadequate, is a sham?

 

[Garrison]

Are you saying, then, that Madrid's declared confidence, about popular support for Catalan secession being inadequate, is a sham?

Nope, just that they are right to be hesitant about putting any faith in the vagaries of a referendum given recent history.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

That is absolute nonsense. It is as if you had absorbed as valid the most absurd pretentions of the most foolish monarchs. "l'état, c'est moi", eh?

The political history of states, of which monarchy is of course a part, but only a part, is a very important influence on modern events.

It's like the joke version of imperial history, when unfortunate schoolchildren were forced to learn and rhyme off lists of "kings and queens of England", and when they could do that, they were esteemed as knowledgeable about "History"

Spain is highly complex and diverse, and so are the Netherlands, and Austria, and Hungary and a myriad other places that have been "holdings of the Habsburgs". To examine their political and constitutional history is not a folly, but an indispensable study, if any understanding is to be achieved.

Refuting things I didn't say.

Must be another day that ends in "y" on ISF...

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be

 

[Andy_Ross]

Spain's interior ministry has taken direct charge of Catalonia's police after firing senior Catalan police officials.

I wonder who the rank and file will obey.

 

[Giz]

So what do our Scot Nats feel about the implications of the EU/Juncker sppech:

"Jean-Claude Juncker, European Union President, has warned "there isn't room in Europe for other cracks” after*Catalan’s vote*to secede from Spain."

 

[Craig B]

Refuting things I didn't say.

Must be another day that ends in "y" on ISF...

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be

If you think I have misapprehended the meaning of your post, may I respectfully suggest that you tell me in what way I have done that?

The Y joke was only of limited mirthfulness, I regret to say, and of even less informative value.

 

[Craig B]

So what do our Scot Nats feel about the implications of the EU/Juncker sppech:

"Jean-Claude Juncker, European Union President, has warned "there isn't room in Europe for other cracks” after*Catalan’s vote*to secede from Spain."

We'll need to see how this develops first. You will recall however, that Scotland voted very strongly to remain in the EU, so a desire to "crack" that alliance isn't a Scottish nationalist preoccupation. On the contrary, if the UK leaves the EU then Scotland leaves the U.K., there would not be a further "crack" but a partial restoration of the EU's population and territorial extent.

If the new Catalan Republic is as pro EU as Scotland has shown itself to be, then there will have been a crack in Spain, but not in the EU, on account of this secession. Or of course the secession may soon be suppressed by Madrid.

However, I can fully understand the unwillingness of the EU to become involved at this level in the constitutional affairs of its members, so I expect to see further discreet remarks, rather than bold statements, from EU spokespersons.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

If you think I have misapprehended the meaning of your post, may I respectfully suggest that you tell me in what way I have done that?

The Y joke was only of limited mirthfulness, I regret to say, and of even less informative value.

You used the classic tactic of responding to a much more extreme version of my statement.

Your repeated pejorative-laden taunts leave me with little interest in trying to resolve the misunderstanding beyond that statement.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

That would be better expressed like this: the Uk government permitted a referendum to take place in Scotland, and people of all opinions participated in it. The government's unionist interference was at the level of misinformation and propaganda, not violent or other physical impediments to the conduct of the operation.

I repeat, if the Spanish government is confident that there is a majority in Catalonia in favour of maintaining the Spanish Union, why not let the election go ahead, so that this supposed majority will be permitted to manifest itself?

If any offences have been committed by the organisers of the referendum, then there are courts and procedures for dealing with that, I am sure.

Yes, there are. And they did. They judged that the taken referendum was illegal according to Spanish law.
And that was ignored.

 

[Craig B]

You used the classic tactic of responding to a much more extreme version of my statement.

Your repeated pejorative-laden taunts leave me with little interest in trying to resolve the misunderstanding beyond that statement.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be

I don't believe you. But that's fine. If you have no explanation to give, I will trouble you no further.

 

[Craig B]

Yes, there are. And they did. They judged that the taken referendum was illegal according to Spanish law.
And that was ignored.

Not at all ignored. Catalan autonomy has been suppressed, and the whole population of Catalonia is affected by that. That is not a legal procedure against the specific persons suspected of infringing Spanish law.

Nor is the suspension of the Catalan parliament a punishment imposed on persons convicted in a Spanish court of law, is it?

 

[quadraginta]

So what do our Scot Nats feel about the implications of the EU/Juncker sppech:

"Jean-Claude Juncker, European Union President, has warned "there isn't room in Europe for other cracks” after*Catalan’s vote*to secede from Spain."

Shouldn't be a problem in a year and a half or so, when the U.K. isn't part of Europe anymore.

 

[dudalb]

That would be better expressed like this: the Uk government permitted a referendum to take place in Scotland, and people of all opinions participated in it. The government's unionist interference was at the level of misinformation and propaganda, not violent or other physical impediments to the conduct of the operation.

I repeat, if the Spanish government is confident that there is a majority in Catalonia in favour of maintaining the Spanish Union, why not let the election go ahead, so that this supposed majority will be permitted to manifest itself?

If any offences have been committed by the organisers of the referendum, then there are courts and procedures for dealing with that, I am sure.

Hope you don't get indigestion from all those sour grapes over the failed Scottish Referendum.
And you seem to have forgotten about the SNP taking a beating in the last UK elections.
IMHO, a majority of the Scottish people are not yet convinced that that independence from Scotland is a good idea.
And, IMHO, that the independence movement has been taken over by one political ideology has something to do with that.

 

[dudalb]

Nope, just that they are right to be hesitant about putting any faith in the vagaries of a referendum given recent history.

And the Catalan referendum was flawed with a great many abstaingin because it was technically illegal.

We don't know what the Catalan people really want.
But I think that Madrid's heavy handed actions are making a lot more "Yes" voters for sucession from Spain.

 

[Information Analyst]

Nonsense - hence anybody with a cultural grudge can claim independence?

Newcastle, for example.

Well, they certainly speak a different language...