Sovereign Citizens Hijinks

[BStrong]

It is rooted in white supremacy because it comes directly from the Posse Comitatus movement. There are blacks who claim Sovereign Citizenship, but they may not realize that they cannot be Sovereigns because their citizenship was granted to them by the government. That's the deal according to the "purists" of the SovCit movement. Whites are SovCit by birth, but blacks can't be because an illegitimate government said they are and that's not legit.

The first one I ran into way back when was a part time self appointed minister, full time bigot, and purveyor of suppressor "kits" back in the pre-86 wild west years.

Next time I saw that guy, he was a featured case on America's Most Wanted.

 

[Pterodactyl]

Haven't seen that. Crazy.

 

[William Parcher]

The government never granted whites citizenship because they are inherently such at birth.

 

[casebro]

Damn I didn't think of that. Not even after reading "The Taxman's Secrets" about why I don't have to pay income tax.

And I don't pay taxes either. Now, how can I turn my SSI into a promissory note?

 

[Pterodactyl]

I get some annual training at work on SCs, but the stuff I learn on this forum is 10x more interesting. Thanks WP. I am fascinated by these people, and what could possibly make them think the things they do. Kind of like bigfooters, actually.

 

[Bob001]

^Bingo^

It's a going thing - if these guys could turn lead into gold as successfully as they turn paper into handcuffs they'd really have something worth thinking about.

I don't think I understand this. What do they think a "promissory note" is? Who do they think is backing them? Why do they think they can get cash for it? Is this like going to the bank with a Nigerian-scam email and claiming "Look, this prince is gonna send me a zillion dollars! i want it now," or what?

 

[BStrong]

I don't think I understand this. What do they think a "promissory note" is? Who do they think is backing them? Why do they think they can get cash for it? Is this like going to the bank with a Nigerian-scam email and claiming "Look, this prince is gonna send me a zillion dollars! i want it now," or what?

Simplified explanation.

Joe Blow SC sends the county clerk a demand letter that is a snail mail version of a modern opt out scheme - if you don't get back to me in (whatever delusional time frame) you owe me ten million dollars.

County clerk dead files the demand letter.

Joe blow SC then attempts to file (SOP another county) a lien on the county clerk for that amount. If the CC knows their business, they want supporting court documents. If they're a lame, they record the lien.

If Joe Blow SC has run into the educated CC, they may bail to try another CC, or they may make up their own version of a court order - no **** - and proceed. Solid failure if the clerk is on his game.

If the SC found themselves an uneducated CC that has fallen for their line, They then create "promissory notes" based on these fake liens - they attempt to find an individual or financial institution that will issue credit or preferably cash based on the fake PN, and much like the various 419 scams the selling point usually devolves to "Listen, I've got "X" amount on this note, give me 20% (or whatever) on the dollar and...individuals have fallen for it, institutions, not so much. There have been cases where SC's sold fake PN's to other SC's which I find hilarious but is a great example of how far these guys have gone down the rabbit hole.

That's it in a nutshell - variations have had idiots attempting to pay various taxes with these things, and there have been incidents where SC's have used documents that were wholly fraudulent to further these types of schemes, but for the most part they just exploit ignorance and greed.

 

[BStrong]

Damn I didn't think of that. Not even after reading "The Taxman's Secrets" about why I don't have to pay income tax.

And I don't pay taxes either. Now, how can I turn my SSI into a promissory note?

Can do easy G. I.

Multiply your SSI check by 120 (you're going to live another ten years, right?) and bend to the paperwork - in SC land that money is your's for the asking.

Go buy a new car, pay taxes, have at it!

 

[mgidm86]

Anyone care to explain what a Sovereign Citizen is? I'd look it up but I think I'm probably not the only one completely lost here. Or maybe I am

It sounds stupid, I'll say that.

 

[marplots]

Anyone care to explain what a Sovereign Citizen is? I'd look it up but I think I'm probably not the only one completely lost here. Or maybe I am

It sounds stupid, I'll say that.

Here's a breakdown on the group(s) from the SLPC: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/sovereign-citizens-movement

 

[Bob001]

Simplified explanation.

Joe Blow SC sends the county clerk a demand letter that is a snail mail version of a modern opt out scheme - if you don't get back to me in (whatever delusional time frame) you owe me ten million dollars.

County clerk dead files the demand letter.
.....

What's the basis for the initial letter? "You owe me 10 million dollars because...."? Could the clerks shut the whole thing down by responding "Dear Sir, We don't owe you any money," or similarly?

 

[Border Reiver]

What's the basis for the initial letter? "You owe me 10 million dollars because...."? Could the clerks shut the whole thing down by responding "Dear Sir, We don't owe you any money," or similarly?

Like the Canadian "Freemen on the Land" the SovCit loon tends to choose something that would cause most of us to go "Huh?"

As a paralegal for the Federal Crown here in Canada I've seen FOTL demands for money based on:

a. Time spent while "illegally detained" at a traffic stop (usually at the bargain rate of $10,000/hour);
b. Fines for "violations of their Magna Carta rights"/"natural law rights"/etc.
c. Trespassing by LEOs on their property when said LEOs come to arrest them or seize property;
d. Fines for "use of their land" (typically presented with a lovingly prepared screed demonstrating that they by some sort of connection to a First Nation are the hereditary chief and that "on behalf of the People" we need to send vast sums of money or cede title and control of Vancouver/Victoria/Edmonton/Winnipeg/Toronto to that person who will administer the lands for the benefit of the people because its his duty); and
e. A demand for the assistance of the Canadian Armed Forces to resist "Illegal Government Agents" (read Provincial Police Officers) who are oppressing him and as "an ally of Her Majesty the Queen" we are honour bound to come to his assistance.

They're good for a laugh, but are a big time waster.

 

[William Parcher]

What's the basis for the initial letter? "You owe me 10 million dollars because...."? Could the clerks shut the whole thing down by responding "Dear Sir, We don't owe you any money," or similarly?

The promissory note thing might be related to the secret US Treasury account which is set up automatically upon the birth of a baby. The SCs claim that it's worth many millions and that a SC can gain access to it if they know what to do. But see the government is corrupt so they keep it a secret and use it for settling foreign debts and collateral and whatever whatnot they may choose. Of course, Wells Fargo Bank knows all about this and they are corrupt too. The promissory note is supposed to work because Wells Fargo knows that you have millions sitting in that secret Treasury account and they ought to give you cash against it any time you want some cash. I'm just speculating that this might be the basis for the money demand.

You can read a bit about their theory of having millions in a secret Treasury account at the link to the Southern Poverty Law Center.

.....According to sovereign "researchers," this means that the government has pledged its citizenry as collateral, by selling their future earning capabilities to foreign investors, effectively enslaving all Americans. This sale, they claim, takes place at birth. When a baby is born in the U.S., a birth certificate is issued, and the hospital usually requires that the parents apply for a Social Security number at that time. Sovereigns say that the government then uses that birth certificate to set up a kind of corporate trust in the baby's name — a secret Treasury account — which it funds with an amount ranging from $600,000 to $20 million, depending on the particular variant of the sovereign belief system. By setting up this account, every newborn's rights are cleverly split between those held by the flesh-and-blood baby and the ones assigned to his or her corporate shell account....

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/sovereign-citizens-movement

 

[Resume]

Like the Canadian "Freemen on the Land" the SovCit loon tends to choose something that would cause most of us to go "Huh?"

As a paralegal for the Federal Crown here in Canada I've seen FOTL demands for money based on:

a. Time spent while "illegally detained" at a traffic stop (usually at the bargain rate of $10,000/hour);
b. Fines for "violations of their Magna Carta rights"/"natural law rights"/etc.
c. Trespassing by LEOs on their property when said LEOs come to arrest them or seize property;
d. Fines for "use of their land" (typically presented with a lovingly prepared screed demonstrating that they by some sort of connection to a First Nation are the hereditary chief and that "on behalf of the People" we need to send vast sums of money or cede title and control of Vancouver/Victoria/Edmonton/Winnipeg/Toronto to that person who will administer the lands for the benefit of the people because its his duty); and
e. A demand for the assistance of the Canadian Armed Forces to resist "Illegal Government Agents" (read Provincial Police Officers) who are oppressing him and as "an ally of Her Majesty the Queen" we are honour bound to come to his assistance.

They're good for a laugh, but are a big time waster.

Like this guy?


Sovereign Citizen in Canada. Goes from Brave to Baby in 2 Seconds

 

[Dr. Keith]

d. Fines for "use of their land" (typically presented with a lovingly prepared screed demonstrating that they by some sort of connection to a First Nation are the hereditary chief and that "on behalf of the People" we need to send vast sums of money or cede title and control of Vancouver/Victoria/Edmonton/Winnipeg/Toronto to that person who will administer the lands for the benefit of the people because its his duty)

Uhm, not to bother you off the clock, but I'm still waiting on a response to that demand. We have big plans for Victoria becoming the Las Vegas of Pacific.

'K, thanks.

Chief Dr. Keith

 

[Trebuchet]

Uhm, not to bother you off the clock, but I'm still waiting on a response to that demand. We have big plans for Victoria becoming the Las Vegas of Pacific.

'K, thanks.

Chief Dr. Keith

Works for me. After all, "Las Vegas" is Spanish and Vancouver Island was first claimed by Spain. I can therefore see Spain from my house!

 

[Horatius]

It is rooted in white supremacy because it comes directly from the Posse Comitatus movement. There are blacks who claim Sovereign Citizenship, but they may not realize that they cannot be Sovereigns because their citizenship was granted to them by the government. That's the deal according to the "purists" of the SovCit movement. Whites are SovCit by birth, but blacks can't be because an illegitimate government said they are and that's not legit.

They're not directly claiming to be SovCits, but they've co-opted all the SovCit nonsense, and grafted it onto their own origin myths of being "Moorish Citizens"

What may be even stranger about Gaines and his black Fort Wayne cohorts is that the “sovereign citizens” ideology to which they adhere — a conspiratorial belief system that argues that most Americans are not subject to most tax and criminal laws promulgated by the government — was originally thoroughly anti-black. But its racist roots have been virtually forgotten by increasing numbers of black Americans who have melded it with selective interpretations of the teachings of pioneer black nationalist Noble Drew Ali, who founded the exclusively black Moorish Science Temple of America (MSTA) almost 100 years ago.

 

[dudalb]

Sovereign Citizens are all kooks, but the kookery differes. Some are hard core White Surpemists,others simply are trying to get out of paying taxes,and quite a few are both.
The first category are dangerous, the second are laughable.

 

[dudalb]

They're not directly claiming to be SovCits, but they've co-opted all the SovCit nonsense, and grafted it onto their own origin myths of being "Moorish Citizens"

Remember Wesley Snipes?

 

[dudalb]

They're not directly claiming to be SovCits, but they've co-opted all the SovCit nonsense, and grafted it onto their own origin myths of being "Moorish Citizens"

Ironically, one of the most publicizes attempts to use Sovereign Citizen nonsense to get out of paying taxes was Wesley Snipes a few years ago. Did not work very well for him.