Sovereign Citizens Hijinks

[phiwum]

I didn't say "law-abiding", I said non-troublemaking. People who have bought into the crazy but have not come to the attention of law enforcement, and appear to be good neighbors (do you really know if your neighbors have filed their taxes?).

The man who keeps his car in good repair and drives safely might not come to the attention of the police, who never notice that the nut is printing his own vehicle inspection stickers.

The man who builds a small house, puts up some solar panels, installs his own septic system, and builds a clean, healthy, off-grid farm, might not have any problems in Alaska. The ANWR reserve is pretty big and in general when we see a building in the distance, we tend to assume that whoever built it had permission.

And this might go on for a while, with the Sovereign Citizen breaking the law for years, but not in a way that is immediately noticed. At least until someone sideswipes his car and the police start an accident report, or someone looks at a survey map, or something like that. Then all hell breaks loose.

Landmines of stupid...

Point taken, aside from the notion that police won't notice homemade plates.

I accidentally allowed my plates to expire in March. I found out in May, when I was pulled over on the highway. I'm not positive, but I suspect that the patrolman was using OCR or similar tech to alert him. I doubt that he's checking the small sticker on every car.

Aside from that minor caveat, I get your point.

 

[HarryHenderson]

Selection bias? You wouldn't hear about sovereign citizens that are also nice to people and don't like to do bad things because they wouldn't make the news.

You almost got it, self selection bias. That is, criminals choose it because it's a criminal endeavor. It's not anywhere near the "coincidence" you're implying that it's only criminals you'd ever hear about. It's such a stupid premise that only people with a criminal mind could think it up as "doable" as it's almost too tailor made to everything real criminals stand for. Chiefly that one can do essentially anything one wants and not have to answer for/be punished by some "unrecognized" higher authority.

 

[BobTheCoward]

You almost got it, self selection bias. That is, criminals choose it because it's a criminal endeavor. It's not anywhere near the "coincidence" you're implying that it's only criminals you'd ever hear about. It's such a stupid premise that only people with a criminal mind could think it up as "doable" as it's almost too tailor made to everything real criminals stand for. Chiefly that one can do essentially anything one wants and not have to answer for/be punished by some "unrecognized" higher authority.

Massive speculation of intent in your post. Is there any evidence that any of that is true?

 

[Horatius]

“Nobody cannot represent me,” he said. “I represent myself.”


Now I'm wondering, is he just grammatically inept, or is he claiming that the lawyer is literally "nobody", for some SovCit, "Real flesh and blood human" type reason?

 

[phiwum]

“Nobody cannot represent me,” he said. “I represent myself.”


Now I'm wondering, is he just grammatically inept, or is he claiming that the lawyer is literally "nobody", for some SovCit, "Real flesh and blood human" type reason?

There's so much genuine ignorance in the movement that I wouldn't bother with double negations.

 

[fuelair]

I wonder if the Feds could aggressively go after the bunch of them with RICO as organized crime. Or, is this not actually an organized crime syndicate?

Legislatively and specifically add it to any laws on the topic.

 

[HarryHenderson]

Massive speculation of intent in your post. Is there any evidence that any of that is true?

Really? Trolls usually ask such stupid questions because they just can't help themselves in trying to get a rise out of people, what's your excuse?

I'll speak slowly BobTheCoward. The entire 'sovereign citizen' movement/premise is "criminal", all the way down to its teeny tiny DNA. Literally none of what they claim and do has the rule of law (or common sense or reason or intelligence either) on their side. Kinda like I said earlier about how common criminals act, i.e. what they regularly do is inevitably against the law because that's just what they do. They can only pretend they do it because they're immune from the laws of the land. They have yet to offer a single valid argument in a proper court that they're right and everyone else is wrong (and they've been in court an uncountable number of times). Curiously the single best place in the world to offer up such ground breaking evidence is in a court of law. Oh the irony!

So anyway their list of anti-social and criminal activity is long and includes such nonsense as income tax protest and litigation based solely on them personally "not recognizing" the US (and/or its states) as a valid jurisdiction. Of course all while still gladly living within its borders and enjoying its way of life. Astoundingly some even renounce their US citizenship while also staying put. Then there's their weirdly usurping the rules of grammar by claiming the capitalization of entire words can make them "official" and "binding" and "lawful" for use by the everyday 'sovereign citizen'.

And then using those words (in part) to criminally file false lien notices against real property they have no rightful claims to whatsoever. It's simply to game the system for their own possible gain (because the filing of liens is cheap and isn't a vetted process typically nor is it an adjudication of them). It's strictly an "official" recorded filing in the county recorder's office that (in the case of SC actions) typically brings a potential legal and bureaucratic nightmare for its victims. Usually because the illegitimacy of it doesn't get completely distilled until the end of the process. You don't find it at all funny that these idiots who claim "there's no jurisdiction over them" regularly and eagerly use and abuse the County Recorder's Office which is by law a part of the "jurisdiction" they claim has no authority? Relentlessly abusing a government system they explicitly claim to not recognize isn't criminal or anti-social in any way to you? Really? I'm just speculating?

Apparently they also have regularly claimed to be state officers/governors "of some older version of their state government" that usually never existed. Why would they use such a ploy? And/or their absurd claims in various courts that murder, mayhem, theft, assault, rape, robbery and all manner of other crimes aren't actually illegal because the jurisdiction prosecuting them has no authority over them. WP's example above is an egregious example of this. Again, why would they use such a ploy? For truth and goodness? To further the cause? To game the system so as to delay the consequences? Why is it that the person claiming such broad concepts is inevitably and always the singular beneficiary?

You still not convinced it's bad people doing bad things?

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited for civility

BobTheCoward now needs to supply "evidence" TO US that it's all "good people" and that these bad ones are really the exceptions soiling the movement's good name. You have yet to offer up a single piece of evidence or intelligence any of that is true, just your simple-minded claims that the "good ones" would be ignored if they existed. The fact you'd defend their stupidity by asking me for evidence they're no good without putting forth even an iota of honest effort yourself to prove the "good ones" even exist says a lot about your game.

Please don't bother to reply to me if all you got is more insipid two sentence stupidity.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Really? Trolls usually ask such stupid questions because they just can't help themselves in trying to get a rise out of people, what's your excuse?

I'll speak slowly BobTheCoward. The entire 'sovereign citizen' movement/premise is "criminal", all the way down to its teeny tiny DNA. Literally none of what they claim and do has the rule of law (or common sense or reason or intelligence either) on their side. Kinda like I said earlier about how common criminals act, i.e. what they regularly do is inevitably against the law because that's just what they do. They can only pretend they do it because they're immune from the laws of the land. They have yet to offer a single valid argument in a proper court that they're right and everyone else is wrong (and they've been in court an uncountable number of times). Curiously the single best place in the world to offer up such ground breaking evidence is in a court of law. Oh the irony!

So anyway their list of anti-social and criminal activity is long and includes such nonsense as income tax protest and litigation based solely on them personally "not recognizing" the US (and/or its states) as a valid jurisdiction. Of course all while still gladly living within its borders and enjoying its way of life. Astoundingly some even renounce their US citizenship while also staying put. Then there's their weirdly usurping the rules of grammar by claiming the capitalization of entire words can make them "official" and "binding" and "lawful" for use by the everyday 'sovereign citizen'.

And then using those words (in part) to criminally file false lien notices against real property they have no rightful claims to whatsoever. It's simply to game the system for their own possible gain (because the filing of liens is cheap and isn't a vetted process typically nor is it an adjudication of them). It's strictly an "official" recorded filing in the county recorder's office that (in the case of SC actions) typically brings a potential legal and bureaucratic nightmare for its victims. Usually because the illegitimacy of it doesn't get completely distilled until the end of the process. You don't find it at all funny that these idiots who claim "there's no jurisdiction over them" regularly and eagerly use and abuse the County Recorder's Office which is by law a part of the "jurisdiction" they claim has no authority? Relentlessly abusing a government system they explicitly claim to not recognize isn't criminal or anti-social in any way to you? Really? I'm just speculating?

Apparently they also have regularly claimed to be state officers/governors "of some older version of their state government" that usually never existed. Why would they use such a ploy? And/or their absurd claims in various courts that murder, mayhem, theft, assault, rape, robbery and all manner of other crimes aren't actually illegal because the jurisdiction prosecuting them has no authority over them. WP's example above is an egregious example of this. Again, why would they use such a ploy? For truth and goodness? To further the cause? To game the system so as to delay the consequences? Why is it that the person claiming such broad concepts is inevitably and always the singular beneficiary?

You still not convinced it's bad people doing bad things?

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited for civility

BobTheCoward now needs to supply "evidence" TO US that it's all "good people" and that these bad ones are really the exceptions soiling the movement's good name. You have yet to offer up a single piece of evidence or intelligence any of that is true, just your simple-minded claims that the "good ones" would be ignored if they existed. The fact you'd defend their stupidity by asking me for evidence they're no good without putting forth even an iota of honest effort yourself to prove the "good ones" even exist says a lot about your game.

Please don't bother to reply to me if all you got is more insipid two sentence stupidity.

Now that was just a good answer. I agree with this.

 

[Random]

Point taken, aside from the notion that police won't notice homemade plates.

I accidentally allowed my plates to expire in March. I found out in May, when I was pulled over on the highway. I'm not positive, but I suspect that the patrolman was using OCR or similar tech to alert him. I doubt that he's checking the small sticker on every car.

Aside from that minor caveat, I get your point.

Actually, he probably was just checking the sticker. The fact that you went over a month without getting pulled over probably means that the cops were not using OCR. I am not sure what state you are in, but here in Massachusetts they change the color of the little registration tag sticker each year, the registrations are good for two years, and the plate has the month it turns over printed on it. A cop can glance at the sticker and tell in an instant if it is up to date (blue or orange - ignore, red - look at the month), and as the years progress and the number of people with registration stickers from two years ago shrinks, the color of expired or soon to expire stickers becomes more and more eye catching.

When I had my registration screw up (my insurance company got bought up by a bigger company, and I ignored a bunch of junk mail from some company I never heard of who wanted me to pay them for auto insurance), I went three months before I got pulled over. If I had made it another month I would have caught it when I got my vehicle inspected.

 

[phiwum]

Actually, he probably was just checking the sticker. The fact that you went over a month without getting pulled over probably means that the cops were not using OCR. I am not sure what state you are in, but here in Massachusetts they change the color of the little registration tag sticker each year, the registrations are good for two years, and the plate has the month it turns over printed on it. A cop can glance at the sticker and tell in an instant if it is up to date (blue or orange - ignore, red - look at the month), and as the years progress and the number of people with registration stickers from two years ago shrinks, the color of expired or soon to expire stickers becomes more and more eye catching.

When I had my registration screw up (my insurance company got bought up by a bigger company, and I ignored a bunch of junk mail from some company I never heard of who wanted me to pay them for auto insurance), I went three months before I got pulled over. If I had made it another month I would have caught it when I got my vehicle inspected.

Coincidentally, I live in Massachusetts too.

You might be right, he might have been checking stickers for color, but the month is on the sticker, not the plate.

 

[Sherman Bay]

Point taken, aside from the notion that police won't notice homemade plates.

I accidentally allowed my plates to expire in March. I found out in May, when I was pulled over on the highway. I'm not positive, but I suspect that the patrolman was using OCR or similar tech to alert him. I doubt that he's checking the small sticker on every car.

I suspect you are using the term "OCR" to refer to Automatic Number Plate Recognition, a technology that allows police to scan every license plate that passes within view moving or stationary, OCRed and sent to a database lookup. Some database lookups can link the plate to persons thought to be living at the same address as well as the obvious expired or stolen plates. Anything that comes back even slightly suspicious may result in a traffic stop.

Successfully recognized plates may be matched against databases including "wanted person", "protection order", missing person, gang member, known and suspected terrorist, supervised release, immigration violator, and National Sex Offender lists.

 

[Random]

Coincidentally, I live in Massachusetts too.

You might be right, he might have been checking stickers for color, but the month is on the sticker, not the plate.

The inspection sticker has the month, but the registration sticker you put on the plate just lists the year. The physical plate has the month.

 

[phiwum]

The inspection sticker has the month, but the registration sticker you put on the plate just lists the year. The physical plate has the month.

You're right.

 

[PopeTom]

The inspection sticker has the month, but the registration sticker you put on the plate just lists the year. The physical plate has the month.

Also in MA.

In cases where the month is not printed on the plate the last digit of the plate's number represents the registrations expiration month, ie. the last number on my plate is 8 and my registration expires in August 2019.

 

[Horatius]

Also in MA.

In cases where the month is not printed on the plate the last digit of the plate's number represents the registrations expiration month, ie. the last number on my plate is 8 and my registration expires in August 2019.

Wait, does this mean you guys change your whole plate every year or two?

That seems quite inefficient, if so.

 

[Random]

Wait, does this mean you guys change your whole plate every year or two?

That seems quite inefficient, if so.

Nah, the metal plates stay the same, you just get sent a little sticker in the mail every two years that you place on the corner of the rear plate where the cops can spot it. The month on the plate really just determines when you get the sticker.

 

[phiwum]

Wait, does this mean you guys change your whole plate every year or two?

That seems quite inefficient, if so.

No, the last digit applies to the month, not the year.

Some people have special plates, not merely the pre-order kind, but "sandwich plates" like X7J or 7J3. At least the former plate wouldn't obey that convention.

 

[Jim_MDP]

Can the pentultimate digit only be 0 or 1 to accommodate Oct, Nov and Dec?
Just curious.

You lose a bit of the available pool, but it's a smaller state.

 

[ponderingturtle]

“Nobody cannot represent me,” he said. “I represent myself.”


Now I'm wondering, is he just grammatically inept, or is he claiming that the lawyer is literally "nobody", for some SovCit, "Real flesh and blood human" type reason?

Sounds like a real legal Odyssey.

 

[The Greater Fool]

“Nobody cannot represent me,” he said. “I represent myself.”


Now I'm wondering, is he just grammatically inept, or is he claiming that the lawyer is literally "nobody", for some SovCit, "Real flesh and blood human" type reason?

"... Third base!"