Some thoughts about the Mohammed Cartoons

Sunni Man said:
Anger problems CFL?

Have you considered converting to The Religion of Peace?

I think it would help you!
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Cut the self-righteous sanctimonious attitude and answer the questions:

Why does it make a difference what people who don't share your faith say about your god?

How can using another person's text without specifically stating it not be considered fraud?

Why do you think you have divine permission to disregard secular law?
 
Sunni Man said:
YUSUFALI uses the word "execution" which is the correct translation.

Pickthal says "killed", while Shakir uses "murder".

So it was obvious to me why an anti-Islamic person like Jigsaw would pick the translation that used a negative term like murder.
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I see what you mean. I'd much rather be executed than murdered. By the way, which is the correct translation regarding crucifixion and having ones arms and legs amputated?
 
Sunni Man said:
Execution is a legal killing. Murder is illegal killing. Big difference.
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So, as long as you have a text claiming God told you to do so, it is perfectly acceptable to crucify and dismember people for the crime of not believing in your god? I don't much care in you use the word "murder" or "execute". If you want to really sanitize it you could use a euphemism like "terminate" or "retire". In the end it all comes down to killing.

Tell me, if you will, what do you consider to be "making war" on God? I can certainly understand and sympathize with a call to self defense against such aggressions as the Crusades, but were those who resisted invasions by Mohammed's army "making war" on God?
 
To everyone involved in this debate:

the western press took the cartoon crisis as an pulpit from which to shout about how free speech and a free press are cornerstones of western civilization, and look how barbaric those Muslims are, they'll never understand us, clash of civilizations, etc. etc. Agence france-Presse was particularly bad on this as I recall. I've rarely seen such a nasty steaming pile of bull and hypocrisy.

Take a look at this:

http://commercial-archive.com/node/119198

That's an ad which was considerably less overtly offensive than the Danish cartoons. And what was the reasoning of the French court which censored it? That it was "a gratuitous and aggressive act of intrusion on people's innermost beliefs." But wait - I thought we had just been told that one of our innermost beliefs was freedom of expression?

The same ad was also banned in Italy, possibly in other countries as well. More recently, a Spanish satirical newspaper was fined for a (very funny) cartoon showing the prince and his wife having sex. It offended the institution of the monarchy, or some such nonsense.

And people in the west wonder why the rest of the world regards us as hypocrites? Wake up!
 
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sol invictus said:
To everyone involved in this debate:

the western press took the cartoon crisis as an pulpit from which to shout about how free speech and a free press are cornerstones of western civilization, and look how barbaric those Muslims are, they'll never understand us, clash of civilizations, etc. etc. Agence france-Presse was particularly bad on this as I recall. I've rarely seen such a nasty steaming pile of bull and hypocrisy.

Take a look at this:

http://commercial-archive.com/node/119198

That's an ad which was considerably less overtly offensive than the Danish cartoons. And what was the reasoning of the French court which censored it? That it was "a gratuitous and aggressive act of intrusion on people's innermost beliefs." But wait - I thought we had just been told that one of our innermost beliefs was freedom of expression?

The same ad was also banned in Italy, possibly in other countries as well. More recently, a Spanish satirical newspaper was fined for a (very funny) cartoon showing the prince and his wife having sex. It offended the institution of the monarchy, or some such nonsense.

And people in the west wonder why the rest of the world regards us as hypocrites? Wake up!
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So, one group in the west (the press etc) campaigned for freedom of speech and against the murder of people who would use their right to free speech another group in the west (French courts etc) campaigned against free speech and in favour of censorship (not murder just censorship) and this justifies the view (apparently held by everyone who is not in the west) that the entire west are hypocrites?

I don't think it is us who need to 'wake up'.

P.S. please explain just how all of the Danish cartoons were offensive.
 
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Sunni Man said:
Execution is a legal killing. Murder is illegal killing. Big difference.
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According to your book it's mandatory to kill all kuffir so killing people here who disagree with you would be execution and not murder.
 
Sunni Man said:
Yes, yes I do!!! :cool:
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I didn't ask if you thought you have divine permission to disregard secular law. I asked why you thought you have divine permission to disregard secular law.

Why does it make a difference what people who don't share your faith say about your god?

How can using another person's text without specifically stating it not be considered fraud?
 
Sunni Man said:
Curious, what internet source did you get this verse from?
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This is from the Quran - Surah 5, ayah 33. I got it from USC which you have previously said is a good source of Islamic information. click here. This continual implication that I am a CPD is really getting boring now.

ETA: The quote is from Shakir's translation as you can see above. Also, funny to note that you are now guity of that which you are falsely accusing me of! YOU are the one who is copy/pasting your responses and NOT me! haha


Sunni Man said:
YUSUFALI uses the word "execution" which is the correct translation.

Pickthal says "killed", while Shakir uses "murder".

So it was obvious to me why an anti-Islamic person like Jigsaw would pick the translation that used a negative term like murder.
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When quoting the Quran in English I prefer to use Shakir's translation - which you would know if you had reviewed ANY of my posts on "anti islamic forums" or Wiki Islam. Anyway, this point is irrelevant, because (again) you had previously stated:

Sunni Man said:
Why do you think I would say Iran is unIslamic?

Their form of capital punishment is not Islamic.

But so what, it still get's the job done, and that's all that counts.
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Now you need to show evidence that hanging homosexuals from cranes is not acceptable to Allah. Can you do that? I don't see anywhere in the above verse where "they should be killed/murdered" says "but not using cranes", do you?

Let us take your claim of "legal killing". Tell me, if Shariah manadated someone to be killed, and the rulers agree, is that not "legal killing"? IN the context of Iran's Shariah, this seems to prove your whole point wrong. The verse says In case of those who "make war with Allah and Muhammad" OR those who are guilty of 'mischief in the land' here are the punishments <list>.

Of course mischief in the land is any unislamic behaviour! Let me know if you'd like the ahadith to back up my claim here.

Thanks

-JP
 
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gtc said:
So, one group in the west (the press etc) campaigned for freedom of speech and against the murder of people who would use their right to free speech another group in the west (French courts etc) campaigned against free speech and in favour of censorship (not murder just censorship) and this justifies the view (apparently held by everyone who is not in the west) that the entire west are hypocrites?

I don't think it is us who need to 'wake up'.
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It was far from just the press. It was politicians, public figures, and many individuals. Viewed from a distance, it would be hard to make out any sign of dissent,* and under those circumstances it's going to require an unusual person NOT to conclude that those castigating and insulting his/her culture are not representatives of a profoundly hypocritical society.

And let me add that I never saw even a single mention anywhere of this hypocrisy. The same newspaper that had just published editorials excoriating "the Muslim world" for their disregard of freedom of expression published an article on the ban without so much as a peep. (The ban was instituted some months before the cartoon crisis, but France's highest court upheld it shortly after.)

P.S. please explain just how all of the Danish cartoons were offensive.
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Some people find any image of the prophet offensive. When he's got a bomb in his turban especially. Just like some people find any image of christ as a model offensive.


*What I've read of this thread is an excellent example as well - and very disappointing. On a skeptic's forum you might expect people to be a little skeptical of claims and beliefs which conveniently are in accordance with a powerful social bias.
 
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tsig said:
According to your book it's mandatory to kill all kuffir so killing people here who disagree with you would be execution and not murder.
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According to the Bible it's mandatory to kill anyone that doesn't obey Christian priests or judges:

From the Oxford Study Bible (one of the better translations):

Oxford Study Bible said:
12 Anyone who presumes to reject the decision either of the priest ministering there to the Lord your God,
or of the judge, is to be put to death; thus you will purge Israel of wickedness.
13 Then all the people when they hear of it will be afraid, and never again show such presumption.
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That's Deuteronomy 17:12 and 13.
 
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sol invictus: Why are you introducing Tu Quoque as a 'defence' here? This thread is about Muhammad cartoons and Islam. If you wish to discuss Christianity or Christianity vs. Islam, then please open another thread. I for one would love to participate.

Thanks

-JP
 
In Islam you are instructed to slaughter animals with a sharp knife.

It is the most humane form of ending their life.

In Sunni Islam we execute convicted criminals the same way.
 
Sunni Man said:
In Islam you are instructed to slaughter animals with a sharp knife.

It is the most humane form of ending their life.

In Sunni Islam we execute convicted criminals the same way.
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Please respond to post #294.

Thank you.
 
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