So why is revealing magic tricks so sacred?

[wolves_skeptic]

I think the issue is that revealing how the trick is done can be a disservice to the skills of a good magician.

For instance, if someone didn't know how a card trick was done and you said, "Oh, it's easy, they palmed the card." and quickly show them from another angle they would go, "Oh, that's it." and the trick would no longer hold interest for them. What they don't see is the hours and hours and hours people have had to spend perfecting that card palming. The skill in magic, from the magicians point of view, is practising something to such a degree that no one sees you do it. The wonder from the audience part is in working out how you do it. By revealing the trick you, on the whole, ignore the skill of the performer and remove the wonder from the audience... it's a lose lose situation.

 

[Cain]

I know there is a generally agreed 'code' that the secrets behind magic tricks should be kept secret. But why is it so rigidly adhered to?

But it isn't. Too many magicians cannot keep secrets to themselves, and the Internet has facilitated unprecedented exposure. In any case, secrets that are not guarded, are not valued.

It's commonly noted that most magicians already know the basic methods and techniques for most tricks. You might call this the "secret," but the method is not the secret. As discussed in the New Yorker article that came out not long ago, timing, motivation, and theatrics make up part of what magicians generally call "the real work."

I was reading an interview with Derren Brown, and they talked about how in one of his specials he goes to a night club hosting some model bash in order to use psychology to come up with the best line to pick up beautiful girls. What makes a person want to learn the secret -- well, at least men -- is the presentation itself, which has a compelling emotional hook. If he went to some burger joint in the midwest and told people what they were going to order before they ordered, you probably would not be as interested in learning the secret. You can yell it at your TV screen- "Oh, that fat lady is going to get a triple cheeseburger, large french fries and... a small diet Coke."

When we watch the Bourne movies we see the lead character do a lot of clever things. He constructs a make shift bomb using gas, a toaster and a magazine; misdirects highly trained agents with a fan and a flash light; takes out guards with a bottle of whiskey and karate (while injured); thwarts a team of agents with a phone call and gun shots, and so on. We're a party to those (alleged) "tricks of the trade"; we see him thinking on his feet and appreciate his resourcefulness. What we miss (hopefully) is the underlying structure; if it's well done then we accept these situations without thinking they are hopelessly contrived, and the movie ends in an emotionally satisfying but unexpected way. This is a slightly strained analogy, but I think it gets the point across. You can give a writer a clever piece of dialog that everyone will later quote, but what she may want is logical and compelling way to motivate a scene without making it seem labored.

 

[ChaoticLimbs]

You know, I'm not a magician yet, I'm still learning and practicing with family, but I think the real magic is how a conjurer "sells" the trick. Even when I know how it's performed, the thing that still tickles me is to see someone really work a trick wherein the gimmick is the most obvious thing in the world. He is the trick, and his body language and confidence are the reason his audience for a moment thinks "It couldn't simply be *BLANK*, that'd be too cheesy" and they put it out of their mind because they feel there's no way this honest man could pull such a simple con on them, for he is a master magician. It's in that moment when the audience could guess the method but the showmanship of the magician wins them over that magic happens for me.

 

[tkingdoll]

It always amuses me when magicians who are also skeptics complain that people readily believe a paranormal explanation, yet will not allow the exposure of the actual method.

For example, if I claim to bend a spoon with the power of my mind, it is entirely reasonable for someone to say that it's a trick. But unless they're prepared to show everyone the trick, then it's also reasonable that some people will believe it's the power of my mind.

Randi showed how spoonbending is done, on TV, but there are still issues in the magic community about revealing the method! Insane.

 

[Ashles]

Obviously they can do so. Why should we help them do it?

Why shouldn't we - that's exactly my question.

How about someone who keeps going into movie theaters showing 'who-done-its' and shouting out the ending when the movie is just starting to show 'how smart they are'? Are you in favor of that?

That analogy doesn't work because no-one is suggesting you tell people how magic tricks are done who don't want to know.
A better analogy would be if I saw a spoiler thread about a film would I want to click on it and find out whodidit (or some other such information).
That's my choice.
And you don't see people saying all spoiler threads should be deleted.

So in the comparable analogy we accept that information about films IS currently available freely for anyone who wants it with very little effort.

I didn't say you're not allowed. Answers in magic are given much more freely than most people think, but mostly to people who have shown an interest or put in some effort.

Not in my experience. People much prefer to say "I know how they did it" then not say.

I don't think they should be dumped on someone who happens to tune in a TV channel.

So now you don't believe people are even capable of choosing what to watch on television? That's silly.

Many people I know who watched some of the exposure shows 7-8 years ago told me they wished they hadn't seen them. But it was like a car wreck- they couldn't stop watching.

It's hard to know what they were expecting to see if not how the magic tricks were done.
"Many people"?
Really?
"Many"?

Those reasons answered the questions.

Not very well.

There are others.

Presumably less good reasons as you didn't mention them.

 

[Whiplash]

I am someone who grew up fascinated by magic, and spent alot of time reading books, watching videos and so forth. Over time I learned how to do a great number of simple tricks, and how some greater tricks were done.

It ruined me for magic. I totally understand why people who do it want to keep it secret, because when you actually see how simple some of the tricks are to do.. and when you learn enough magic basics to start to understand how other things are being done that you had not seen before, it really makes it a complete "ho hum" experience.

 

[jimtron]

Ashles:


What kind of exposure (secrets of magic tricks revealed), if any, is acceptable to you? Whom, in your opinion, should have access to magic secrets?

 

[Belz...]

Magic tricks are cool when you don't know how they do it. Lame when you do know.

Actually, I tend to think the opposite. Things are more fascinating when I know how they work.

 

[Belz...]

Obviously they can do so. Why should we help them do it?

Why not ?

I consider those magicians very poor magicians.

Not True Scottsmen, right ?

How about someone who keeps going into movie theaters showing 'who-done-its' and shouting out the ending when the movie is just starting to show 'how smart they are'? Are you in favor of that?

After the movie ? Sure.

 

[roger]

This whole thing is predicated on the idea that you (the magician) can think better for me than I can. No thanks, I'm capable of making my own decisions, and it's pretty insulting to think that you have to 'protect' me.

 

[Bob Klase]

Obviously they can do so. Why should we help them do it?

Why not ?

Because there's no good reason to and there are reasons not to. If you think thosee reasons aren't good then you can help them.

Not True Scottsmen, right ?

Only if you think there's no such thing as a poor magician?

After the movie ? Sure.

After the movie they won't be asking.

 

[Bob Klase]

This whole thing is predicated on the idea that you (the magician) can think better for me than I can. No thanks, I'm capable of making my own decisions, and it's pretty insulting to think that you have to 'protect' me.

The whole thing is predicated on the idea that you're entitled to demand answers from me that I don't want to give. Almost all the answers are available. You're just too lazy to spend the time and effort to find them and feel that I'm obligated to give them just because you want them.

 

[Garrette]

{Note} Re-reading this indicates it comes across as somewhat snarky; I'm not attempting to be, so please brush by any apparent attitude and chalk it up to poor writing skills on my part. Thanks.}

Ashles,

Do you see the need for any kind of limit on revealing secrets? (Setting aside the movie theater analogy because we are agreed it makes no sense to reveal secrets someone doesn't want to know)

What about immediately after the show? A spectator walks up to David Copperfield and asks how he cut himself in half (he's got a very very impressive routine on this that can be quite difficult to figure out). If David is still on stage, does he need a reason to say no? What if it's in the dressing room right after? Two hours later at a restaurant?

Let's move it to a trade show performer. If I have a booth in a convention hall, and I see two thousand people a day, but only a few at a time, should I feel obliged to tell the secret to the conventioneer who asks me how I just made the rubber bands penetrate each other? Or how I put the pen with his company logo through my quarter?

Serious questions. No agenda, but an admission that I lean far toward Bob Klase's side.

 

[Garrette]

Oops. I saw this after I posted. In light of this comment, I think I can guess Ashles' response. Sorry for not reading more closely first.

Well I obviously realise that magicians have reasons for wanting to keep the tricks secret - what I don't understand is why everyone else seems to buy into this to the extent they do.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

So why is revealing magic tricks so sacred?

Just a point on the language: revealing magic tricks is not "sacred". In fact, the word you're after is pretty much the opposite. Maybe "taboo"?

Not revealing magic tricks or perhaps "protecting" magic secrets might be considered "sacred".

 

[Belz...]

Because there's no good reason to and there are reasons not to.

Really ? There's no good reason ? Me wanting to understand those tricks is not a good reason ?

Only if you think there's no such thing as a poor magician?

Oh, sure. But I don't think you get to define "poor" as meaning "different from you".

After the movie they won't be asking.

Your analogy fails here. After the movie, they'll want to know how this or that effect was accomplished. THAT is the parallel you should've made.

The whole thing is predicated on the idea that you're entitled to demand answers from me that I don't want to give.

That's fine. However, if another magician is willing to give me those answers, why should you think poorly of him ? Isn't it his right ?

Almost all the answers are available. You're just too lazy to spend the time and effort to find them and feel that I'm obligated to give them just because you want them.

That's incredibly shallow. I want to understand a lot of things about science, technology, nature, etc., but I don't have the time to go back to school and study all those subjects at length. My field is computer programming. I've studied that. But there's a whole lot of other things I want to know, and I have to entrust other people with the task of teaching me, summarily, these things. Magic is no exception.

 

[Bob Klase]

Really ? There's no good reason ? Me wanting to understand those tricks is not a good reason ?

It's certainly a good reason for you to try to learn what you want to know. The fact that you want to know is not a good reason for me to tell you. Especially when I have reasons to not tell you regardless of whether you like my reasons or think they're good.

Oh, sure. But I don't think you get to define "poor" as meaning "different from you".

Whether or not someone is a poor magician is a subjective opinion. My opinion of who's a poor magician is not "different from me"- it's "inferior" or "lacking in quality".

If you review what I wrote, I said that a magician who's using magic (and not revealing tricks) merely to show how smart they are is a poor magician. Doing magic to show how smart you are is a poor reason to do magic and the only magician's I've ever seen who have that as a reason are poor magicians.

Knowing something you've seen or read doesn't make you smarter than someone who doesn't know it.

Your analogy fails here. After the movie, they'll want to know how this or that effect was accomplished. THAT is the parallel you should've made.

Only if it stopped there. But it rarely does. The movie analogy may fail, but as it applies to magic there are too many people who then stand outside the theater and give away the ending to people going in to see the movie.

That's fine. However, if another magician is willing to give me those answers, why should you think poorly of him ? Isn't it his right ?

It may be his right. It depends on what answers he's giving. If he's telling you things that he was told in confidence and he's breaking that confidence then I would hope you'd think poorly of him.

And if I heard him telling you answers then it would be my right to follow him to a performance he was giving and tell everyone the answer to whatever tricks he was doing. There may be a few magicians that wouldn't mind that, but not many.

That's incredibly shallow. I want to understand a lot of things about science, technology, nature, etc., but I don't have the time to go back to school and study all those subjects at length.

So all you have to do is find someone willing to tell you whatever you want to know. Good luck.

 

[El Greco]

So I repeat my question - why are magic tricks protected to an almost legal/national security level?

I suspect it's because Randi wants it this way.

Which raises the question: Will someone who reveals magic tricks be suspended/banned ? And if yes, which exactly will be the rule violation ?

 

[thaiboxerken]

I suspect it's because Randi wants it this way.

Which raises the question: Will someone who reveals magic tricks be suspended/banned ? And if yes, which exactly will be the rule violation ?

Yes, they will be disciplined by the forum moderators. And the rule being violated is "don't expose magic tricks."

 

[Ashles]

I suspect it's because Randi wants it this way.

Don't get me wrong - I understand the restriction on the JREF forums - basically Randi has the right to restrict subjects however he likes, and I would be surprised if a forum for a foundation run by a professional magician DIDN'T restrict the revealing of magic tricks.

But the attitude seems to be the same elsewhere.