So why is revealing magic tricks so sacred?

[Belz...]

I said "in many cases" I considered those magicians to be poor ones.

Then pray tell, in what cases do you NOT consider those magicians to be poor ones ?

It seems that your answers only apply until challenged, then you start start adding qualifications.

Obviously. You were unable to understand what I said, so I had to help you with more words. Small words.

We were discussing what criteria is used to define a poor magician. You don't get to throw out points just because they show that you were wrong.

I wasn't shown wrong yet. Sure enough, something can be entertaining despite the poor quality of the entertainer, but I think you are smart enough to understand what I meant. That you feign the opposite is quite telling.

It's not taboo.

If that is the case then the thread is over.

You don't want to see.

And AGAIN with the mind-reading. Is this some psychological issue, here ? Why do you feel compelled to assign thoughts and purposes to me ?

Nope, I never said anything about "the trade".

"I didn't say you're not allowed. Answers in magic are given much more freely than most people think, but mostly to people who have shown an interest or put in some effort. I don't think they should be dumped on someone who happens to tune in a TV channel."

"Almost all the answers are available. You're just too lazy to spend the time and effort to find them and feel that I'm obligated to give them just because you want them."

If you don't get the info from someone who knows, then you pretty much have to learn the trade, no ? Or did you imply something else ?

Yes- I'll admit that you never wrote those exact words.

Oh, and did I utter any other set of words that mean the same thing ?

Okay. I don't want there to be war, disease and bad people.

Wow. It's no wonder this conversation isn't going anywhere. You're here to garner "gotcha" moments. How touching.

Why do you have such a problem with other magician's reactions to it then? Obviously the reactions aren't stopping those magician's that will tell you.

Er... that was what I was saying. Perhaps you should read it again. Slowly.

 

[Bob Klase]

I wasn't shown wrong yet. Sure enough, something can be entertaining despite the poor quality of the entertainer

I specifically asked you what criteria you used to determine who was a poor magician [or entertainer]. Your only answer said "whether or not they entertain". Now you've changed your mind again.

And AGAIN with the mind-reading. Is this some psychological issue, here ? Why do you feel compelled to assign thoughts and purposes to me ?

First you spend time complaining that I'm not quoting you, or that I'm trying to read you mind instead of what you write. Then you complain because I am reading exactly what you wrote instead of reading your mind. Now you go back to complaining that I'm not reading exactly what you write. Very consistent.

If you don't get the info from someone who knows, then you
pretty much have to learn the trade, no ? Or did you imply something else ?

You want to learn secrets. Secrets are not "the trade".

Wow. It's no wonder this conversation isn't going anywhere. You're here to garner "gotcha" moments. How touching.

You seem to have a psychological projection problem.

If that is the case then the thread is over.

Well I'm done with it. You obviously aren't looking for any answers so there's no point in trying to provide any.

 

[roger]

The whole thing is predicated on the idea that you're entitled to demand answers from me that I don't want to give. Almost all the answers are available. You're just too lazy to spend the time and effort to find them and feel that I'm obligated to give them just because you want them.

Excuse me? I'm lazy? You are rude.

This whole bulletin board, and life, is based on the free exchange of information. If I want to know something about, oh, roofing materials, I can come on here and ask, and people are happy to share their expertise without asserting that I'm lazy, or that I am "demanding" answers.

 

[roger]

I'll give one example of how learning how a magic trick is done has provided me with a lot of intellectual stimulation.

On one of those tv shows they showed how they levitate a person and pass rings around them to apparently demonstrate that no support is used. Well, it's a simple enough trick, but it was one of those "aha" moments - 'why didn't I think of that'. But it doesn't stop there. It made me think about how to deal with routing issues having nothing to do with magic. When I see other performances, I can try to see if I think that they are using the same scheme or not - usually I end up puzzled. All in all it is pretty darn interesting, and I am very glad that I saw the reveal. I'm very thankful to that 'mystery' magician for that show.

 

[Polgara]

There's a little green man standing here holding a ray gun, making someone speak?

"Obligation is the mother of deformity." -Robert Downey, Jr. Rolling Stone Magazine, Aug. 2008.

"Assuming there is a forced obligation is the mother of deformity." -Polgara, Aug. 2008.

 

[Bob Klase]

Excuse me? I'm lazy? You are rude.

Okay. I'll agree with both of those points. You're lazy and I'm rude.

 

[Belz...]

I specifically asked you what criteria you used to determine who was a poor magician [or entertainer]. Your only answer said "whether or not they entertain". Now you've changed your mind again.

When did I change my mind ? Obviously you have no idea what "entertain" means.

First you spend time complaining that I'm not quoting you, or that I'm trying to read you mind instead of what you write. Then you complain because I am reading exactly what you wrote instead of reading your mind. Now you go back to complaining that I'm not reading exactly what you write. Very consistent.

Oh, no. You've been doing the same thing for a while now, which is willfully making stuff up that I didn't say. Obviously, if somebody falls on his behind and everybody laughs, it's funny, but this person isn't necessarily a good comedian. It's so obvious I shudder to think what other simple concepts you don't understand.

You want to learn secrets. Secrets are not "the trade".

No, YOU are the one who implied one had to learn the trade in order to get those "secrets". Do try to keep up.

You seem to have a psychological projection problem.

And you seem to have been poorly raised.

Well I'm done with it. You obviously aren't looking for any answers so there's no point in trying to provide any.

You certainly haven't done any providing, that's for sure.

 

[uruk]

To the OP: I think skeptichick hit it right on the nose. The Magician's art goes back many centuries. These guys had to make a living doing these tricks. The more tricks you knew the better your chances were to make money. So you weren't inclined to reveal how you did you illusion so that other magicians could steal it and use it.

Magicians learned to guard thier tricks closely.

Over time this tendancy to guard your secrets became a tradition much like the other traditions we have now. It went from being a practical behaviour that blured into a sacred tradition.

Just like how we still don't use live alligators as backscratchers.

I still marvel at the skill of the magicians even though I know how the trick is done.
It's not the gadget or the gag, it's the delivery.

 

[Bob Klase]

When did I change my mind ? Obviously you have no idea what "entertain" means.

What standards would you use to evaluate which magicians are good and which are bad?

Pretty clearly asking how you determine who's good and who's bad.

Same standards I use for other forms of entertainment: whether or not they entertain.

Pretty clearly stating your view- whether or not they entertain is how you determine if they're good.

Sure enough, something can be entertaining despite the poor quality of the entertainer

Pretty clear again- you no longer agree with that whether or not they entertain is how you determine if they're good.

Do you suffer from multiple personality disorder, or do you just enjoy it?

 

[INRM]

The reason revealing magic tricks on this forum is so sacred on this forum is that James Randi was a magician and he doesn't want any of his tricks revealed apparently.

I do find this ironic, though, as this is a skeptic forum and on this forum exists an attitude that there is no such thing as a sacred cow and everything should be open to examination and scrutiny... yet the same people (which included Randi) that maintain this attitude say that there should be no inquiry into magic tricks. Essentially placing magic tricks above criticism and scrutiny into sacred cow status.


INRM

 

[uruk]

Oh yea. My favorite magic trick was the dissappearing pencil trick in Batman: The Dark Knight.

Anybody knows how that was done?

 

[jimtron]

The reason revealing magic tricks on this forum is so sacred on this forum is that James Randi was a magician and he doesn't want any of his tricks revealed apparently.

I do find this ironic, though, as this is a skeptic forum and on this forum exists an attitude that there is no such thing as a sacred cow and everything should be open to examination and scrutiny... yet the same people (which included Randi) that maintain this attitude say that there should be no inquiry into magic tricks. Essentially placing magic tricks above criticism and scrutiny into sacred cow status.


INRM

When did Randi say that there should be no inquiry into magic tricks? I highly doubt that's his view. It's quite simple to learn how the vast majority of tricks are done, so it's not necessary to reveal them on forums such as this one, especially considering that many people find that to be rude or inappropriate.

Also, I disagree that the prevailing view here is that "everything should be open to examination and scrutiny." I, for one, don't hold that view.

 

[Belz...]

Pretty clearly asking how you determine who's good and who's bad.

Pretty clearly stating your view- whether or not they entertain is how you determine if they're good.

Pretty clear again- you no longer agree with that whether or not they entertain is how you determine if they're good.

Do you suffer from multiple personality disorder, or do you just enjoy it?

Gee, I guess not including the rest of what I said about this is your idea of "honesty" ? Or are you beign intentionally obtuse ? As far as I'm concerned, playing dumb is just a dumb as beign so.

 

[Bob Klase]

Gee, I guess not including the rest of what I said about this is your idea of "honesty" ?

There's no need for me to address every sentence you write, especially the ones that have already been covered more than once.

As far as I'm concerned, playing dumb is just a dumb as beign so.

Then I suggest you stop doing it.

 

[Rasmus]

The reason revealing magic tricks on this forum is so sacred on this forum is that James Randi was a magician and he doesn't want any of his tricks revealed apparently.

I do find this ironic, though, as this is a skeptic forum and on this forum exists an attitude that there is no such thing as a sacred cow and everything should be open to examination and scrutiny...

I see a distinction there, though.

Not everything should be made public. My address and other personal details are not subject to "examination and scrutiny".

Claims are, though. If I claimed to be the long lost heir to the emperor of Chine it would just be fair to critically examine that claim.

The question then is, what about a magic trick would deserve a high level of examination, scepticism or scrutiny?

There are no lies to be exposed. The magician doesn't take unfair advantage of his audience, either. He's not (really) claiming to make use of paranormal powers.

There's nothing there that would need or justifiy examination in and of itself.

yet the same people (which included Randi) that maintain this attitude say that there should be no inquiry into magic tricks. Essentially placing magic tricks above criticism and scrutiny into sacred cow status.

Really: What's to criticize about a magic trick that would require you to know how the trick is done?

 

[This is The End]

As far as I have learned when I inquired the key word is secrets in the "NOT TO INCLUDE THE DISCLOSING OF SECRETS".

So, clearly this is about proprietary secrets or ones that are being sold as such (a decent amount of money is involved, and another example), and it's not about tricks that "everyone knows" or "are public knowledge".

The problem here arises in asking a mod to check every single disclosure to see which category it falls into. Since to some(one?) that seems to be asking a bit much, a zero tolerance policy has been found to be easier.

 

[Belz...]

Then I suggest you stop doing it.

Oh, my. A tu quoque. You really got me there!! It's amazing I lasted this long against such sharp wit.

 

[Stuart]

I don't think the following has been covered - my apologies if I am re-stating others here.

As far as I know, Randi said it was justified to reveal Spoon / Key bending tricks etc when exposing Geller, to expose Geller as a magician not someone with any special powers.

With regard to general exposure of techniques, I believe that potential audiences would then become polorized, either not watching magic as they know how it's done or going to watch the skill of how it is done.

 

[jimtron]

With regard to general exposure of techniques, I believe that potential audiences would then become polorized, either not watching magic as they know how it's done or going to watch the skill of how it is done.

I'm a bit confused by this sentence--would you mind elaborating a bit? I'm not sure what you mean by "going to watch the skill of how it is done."

 

[eGadfly]

Not to interrupt your internet peeing contest, but I wanted to relate my own story to the OP. Unfortunately I had to register to the forum (a process that took about a week) and now it appears the thread has devolved.

Anyhoo...

About 10 years ago, a friend of mine taught me a coin trick. This "trick" is half trick, half talent. I spent months practicing this trick. Every day for weeks and months I had a quarter in my hand and I was working on perfecting this trick. Over the course of my life I have perfected it.

I showed my 11 year old nephew this trick one day and he was amazed. He wanted to know how it was done and I refused. The next week when I visited again, he asked to see the trick. I performed it, and he was amazed. He begged to know how it was done. I refused.

The third week came and he begged for the trick once more. I performed it and he, once again, pleaded to know how it was done. I gave in and showed him. After about 5 minutes of explaining it to him, he replied, "Oh, ok, whatever", and never wanted to see the trick again.

So, after weeks and months and years of practice to do this trick - all my hard work was lost in 5 minutes. Once you reveal the trick, the sense of wonder is gone.

I vowed that day never to reveal another trick again.