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So why is revealing magic tricks so sacred?

eGadfly said:
Not to interrupt your internet peeing contest
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Another fine one.

I vowed that day never to reveal another trick again.
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So, basically, the person you showed it to was unimpressed by your explanation and you didn't like the experience. That's fine and dandy.

It doesn't change the fact that I, for example, and many others, are fascinated by the explanation of those tricks and prefer them to the tricks themselves. If some magician, or person who knows how it's done, wants to share that knowledge, it is no crime or sin. That was the point of the OP, I believe: that people at large seem to think that revealing magic tricks is somehow wrong.
 
eGadfly said:
Not to interrupt your internet peeing contest, but I wanted to relate my own story to the OP. Unfortunately I had to register to the forum (a process that took about a week) and now it appears the thread has devolved.
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No, come on. What do you mean "unfortunately"? Joining the JREF forum is perhaps the best decision you could have made in a long time. :)

eGadfly said:
Anyhoo...

About 10 years ago, a friend of mine taught me a coin trick. This "trick" is half trick, half talent. I spent months practicing this trick. Every day for weeks and months I had a quarter in my hand and I was working on perfecting this trick. Over the course of my life I have perfected it.

I showed my 11 year old nephew this trick one day and he was amazed. He wanted to know how it was done and I refused. The next week when I visited again, he asked to see the trick. I performed it, and he was amazed. He begged to know how it was done. I refused.

The third week came and he begged for the trick once more. I performed it and he, once again, pleaded to know how it was done. I gave in and showed him. After about 5 minutes of explaining it to him, he replied, "Oh, ok, whatever", and never wanted to see the trick again.

So, after weeks and months and years of practice to do this trick - all my hard work was lost in 5 minutes. Once you reveal the trick, the sense of wonder is gone.

I vowed that day never to reveal another trick again.
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Just out of curiosity, would that happen to be the trick where you bite a piece off a coin?
 
Just out of curiosity, would that happen to be the trick where you bite a piece off a coin?
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lol No, that one has yet to be perfected, maybe after another year of practice... ;)
 
I'm not sure if anyone pointed this out, but there is a certain irony about this forum prohibiting its members from revealing magicians secrets. I mean isn't that essentially what James Randi does? I realize there's a need for some tact in doing this, but at the end of the day doesn't not revealing magicians secrets perpetuate mysticism?
 
3bodyproblem said:
I'm not sure if anyone pointed this out, but there is a certain irony about this forum prohibiting its members from revealing magicians secrets. I mean isn't that essentially what James Randi does?
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Nope. He's revealing the secrets of charlatans. There is a difference. Also, it depends on the particular feat or trick whether or not Randi will expose it or just reproduce it and say it's a magician's trick.
 
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eGadfly said:
The third week came and he begged for the trick once more. I performed it and he, once again, pleaded to know how it was done. I gave in and showed him. After about 5 minutes of explaining it to him, he replied, "Oh, ok, whatever", and never wanted to see the trick again.

So, after weeks and months and years of practice to do this trick - all my hard work was lost in 5 minutes. Once you reveal the trick, the sense of wonder is gone.

I vowed that day never to reveal another trick again.
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First off, children are stupid and gain wonder from all sorts of dumb things so it's unreasonable to derive general principles from that.

Secondly, my reaction to magic has always been the exact opposite. When a magician performs a trick, who the hell cares? This isn't interesting, it's just a mundane sequence of events. There is a girl in a box, magician runs around, there is not a girl in a box. If it was a cartoon depicting these events nobody would care, but somehow people think that if you use trickery to do it in live action without explaining how the magic works it makes it fun, and I honestly can't understand this. Events are events. Why should one form of trickery (drawing frames of animation so as to depict motion and then arranging them in order) be considered more interesting than using some unspecified method? (Of course, if magic is used to depict something which is legitimately entertaining that's a different matter entirely, but the same argument applies. If the events are interesting it remains interesting, (and I do not deny that magic can be quite entertaining) and if the events are uninteresting then the events remain uninteresting.) But when they show how it works, (James Randi in his debunking would be an example of this) then that's interesting, because instead of just saying "there was a girl here and now there isn't" you say "there was a trapdoor" or something. That's interesting, because it shows detail and technology. Now you have something substantial to wrap your head around. Why then should people like me (and I felt the same way when I was a little kid) be sacrificed for the sake of people like your nephew?
 
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Who likes parenthesizes? You do.
First off, children are stupid and gain wonder from all sorts of dumb things so it's unreasonable to derive general principles from that.
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As do adults.

I know how to beat the 99th level of SuperNinja. I am in no way obliged to show you how it is done. In fact, if I could make money beating SuperNinja, it would be extremely "unreasonable" for you to expect me to show you.
 
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thaiboxerken said:
Nope. He's revealing the secrets of charlatans. There is a difference. Also, it depends on the particular feat or trick whether or not Randi will expose it or just reproduce it and say it's a magician's trick.
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Isn't it the secrecy that allows the charlotans to survive? I'm confident in being able to identify an illusion from magic (everything) but some are not so lucky. Does a charlatan using an illusion,but claiming its magic, deserve to be able hide beind "The Code"?

For me, if it comes down to allowing a fraud to seperate people from their money or allowing a good magician to earn a wage, I lean towards exposing the fraud.

As a thought, if someone was selling laser eye surgery as "magic" does the same confidentiality apply to opticians?
 
eGadfly said:
Who likes parenthesizes? You do.
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Parentheses are awesome. Any sort of rational argument will generally involve some sort of sublevels as points are fleshed out to greater detail and parentheses allow you to mark these sublevels. It's not the ideal form of doing it, but it's the best method available.

I know how to beat the 99th level of SuperNinja. I am in no way obliged to show you how it is done. In fact, if I could make money beating SuperNinja, it would be extremely "unreasonable" for you to expect me to show you.
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Well sure, that's fine. (I mean, there's an "information wants to be stolen" side to me that finds it annoying to make money off secrets, but you can't be absolutist about such things.) But to argue that you don't want to explain how to beat the level because you don't want to take the wonder away from kids who like watching you play is a different matter entirely from saying you just want the money.
 
I understand the mystiticism/enjoyment argument, but I still think it should be up to individuals to decide whether or not to show method. I can't help but think that the magicians who would take issue with, say, Randi's spoon bend (or even cold reading, as I've seen at magiccafe!) just want to feel special about themselves, and the rest of us to feel somehow lesser than they. I'm sure such people are a minority, but they must surely contribute to the (IMO) over the top protection of magical secrets.
 
I'm not sure if there is a Skeptic's Code, but for quite a while there has been something called "The Magicians Code"....
If you break it for financial reasons you are a greedy pig.
If you just want to show everybody how smart you are by revealing other peoples secrets you are an insecure thief.

You are free in the Magic Community to reveal anything that is your own. Even sell it if you like.
However, If it's not your idea, then exposure of it is wrong.
 
I think the point here is that there has to be a balance of revealing methods of tricks so that they can continue to be performed, whilst havin the majority be oblivious or unaware of these methods so that the tricks remain effective in the art of magic.
Anyone who really wants to know the methods enough will find out, its just usually only wannabe magicians that have that desire as it involves investing time, effort and money.
 
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