So there was this female speaker on an elevator

[WildCat]

It's quite strange, if I had invited someone back to my room for a coffee to carry on a discussion that would be what I would be inviting them back for! But if I wanted sex with them I would have said do you want to come back for sex.

Gay guys don't have to work as hard. I mean, in college once a girl asked me to come back to her dorm so she could "**** my brains out", and I didn't refuse. But it rarely works the other way around, unless you're a celebrity and/or rich.

I think it's biological, women have far more to lose than men from a casual sexual encounter. Like 9 months of prergnancy followed by 18 years of trying to get child support payments. Birth control is not failproof.

 

[Antiquehunter]

Wasn't she banned for sock-puppeting?

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

This is a serious question, how can you get this:

I've had two occasions on which I have frightened women to some extent simply by being around them - both late night in otherwise deserted car parks, where I was walking to my car and a woman happened to be nearby. I felt horrible about it but I could understand it - late night, dark place, nobody about.

But not this:

... a woman could feel threatened in a closed space with a stranger who has made it clear that he wants himself some sex

To me they seem very similar, woman alone, no easy way to extricate herself, and with a man who's intentions she was unsure of. In fact the second clearly seems worse, since the guy has indicated he wants sex, whereas in the first you were most likely just looking for your car.

 

[WildCat]

Well, given that he wanted to "continue the conversation", one would assume he heard her lecture.

But then she claims he didn't. Which is it?

Oh no, she had all the social skills required. She knew she was crossing the line and thought it would be funny. And she was right. It was.

She didn't have the social skills to realize she would get banned for her joke.

 

[sgtbaker]

I personally have never experience sexism at TAM. However, I can't speak for other guys.

That kind of makes me curious, though. I am sure the macho or goofy answer is a man would enjoy being objectified, at any time. To make it more of a general sex issue and not a specific woman's issue; would a man find it frustrating to be in a position where they are passionate about an issue; whether it be a sexual, social, religious, political, etc and he has himself a forum where he can potentially reach others to spread his message in hopes to make a difference. He makes his speech and hopes his message was well received by his audience. The responses he gets vary and while some are of approval, some are women either telling the women around the male speaker to shut him up; the women telling the male speaker, the sexual fantasies she's creating in her head, while watching him speak; and women saying that he deserves to be sexually abused as a result of what he said.

Would it make a man wonder if he was heard correctly? Did he accidentally block the mic with his penis? Was there something he said that somehow translated to trolling for sexual attention? Would men actually appreciate that type of response?

 

[Phlebas]

Sorry but what I read above is simply you expressing your views on what is appropriate behaviour especially in regards to sex. And I totally and utterly disagree with your views about sex.

I haven't actually given my opinion on sex. (I'm all for it, BTW.)

If you view Elevator Guy's actions as acceptable discourse between adults, there's not much common ground for us to talk about it. If you think it's unreasonable to view his behavior as worrisome, then I have to wonder where the line of "too far" falls.

Granted in our society we still carry a lot of baggage in regards to sex because of our predominately religious history but that makes it no more right (or wrong) than anything else religion has come up with. For some of us sex is just part of life and sometimes when you've met someone for the first time all you want to do is to shag them. Sometimes when you've met someone for the first time you want to talk to them, get to know them, run away from them and so on all of which are just as "right" or "wrong" as wanting to shag them.

And all of that is perfectly fine. However -- and this might just be my opinion -- before acting on that, establishing that the feeling is mutual is a better way to go. This is true for any action you want to take with someone else.

You could say that's exactly what he did when he propositioned Rebecca in the elevator. But waiting until she's in a place where he could easily force himself on her with no one around to intervene and no easy escape... well, I'll leave it as "creepy." Probably unintentional on his part, but there was no way for her to know that.

And that's the whole point of all this. Be aware of how you're coming off to someone else, and be sure that's how you want to come off.

 

[sgtbaker]

But then she claims he didn't. Which is it?


She didn't have the social skills to realize she would get banned for her joke.

I think her stance was that he heard her voice but didn't listen to what she was saying. That's just my take.

 

[Antiquehunter]

Gay guys don't have to work as hard. I mean, in college once a girl asked me to come back to her dorm so she could "**** my brains out", and I didn't refuse. But it rarely works the other way around, unless you're a celebrity and/or rich.

I think it's biological, women have far more to lose than men from a casual sexual encounter. Like 9 months of prergnancy followed by 18 years of trying to get child support payments. Birth control is not failproof.

What, what, what? Gay guys don't have to work as hard? *This* (gesticulating to the not-particularly well-maintained, but impeccably groomed body) takes work. And back when I was dating, in the previous century, back when presidents were ex-movie stars, it took just as much gumption / courage to approach someone for a date or more.

That said, I wouldn't have tried to corner someone in an elevator and make a pass. I wouldn't have an escape route when I was turned down.

 

[H'ethetheth]

It's pretty weird to proposition someone the first time you ever speak to them regardless of the location. That was mistake #1.

But let's see... what's different about being a stranger in an elevator versus a crowded bar? One is completely enclosed without a reliable means of escape and no witnesses, the other is a crowded bar. If this guy had been inclined, he could have easily hit the Stop button and prevented Rebecca from hitting it again.

[...]

If you seriously do not get why a woman could feel threatened in a closed space with a stranger who has made it clear that he wants himself some sex, then I don't know what else to say.

I agree, except where the guy "made it clear he wanted him some sex".
If he's as awkward as he seems, I'm not sure how it's obvious he didn't want what he said he wanted, namely talk and coffee.

 

[gnome]

And so they have a brief conversation, the elevator gets to Persona B's floor and they turn round and say "Do you want to continue this chat over a coffee?", Person A says "Yes". So they go back to Person's B room and spend the next 4 hours chatting away over a couple of coffees.

That to me is a much better world to live in.

Especially if it's the President of Burundi.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

But then she claims he didn't. Which is it?

Link?

She didn't have the social skills to realize she would get banned for her joke.

No, again she had plenty of social skills. It wasn't clear that she would get banned. And I don't think she really cared either way.

 

[Lamuella]

When she says "Guys, don't do it", I think she needs to clarify EXACTLY what it is guys shouldn't do, because it could certainly be read that she is saying "Guys, don't make your attraction and interest in another woman known to her in a public place", which is obviously ridiculous, right?

it could be read that way, but not very easily. Without presuming to speak for anyone else, my impression is that what creeped her out was that he didn't show attraction and interest in a public place, he showed attraction and interest in a confined place with nobody else there. Unless I've read a lot of things wrong, the fault lies in the fact that his approach wasn't in a public place.

Again, not trying to speak for anyone else, but there's a lot of difference in how an approach will make someone feel if you do it in a place with a lot of other people around versus doing it in a place with nobody else there.

 

[Phlebas]

Is there any evidence at all his guy was at the skeptics conference, as opposed to just hanging out at the bar of the hotel he was staying at?

Not that I'm aware of. But I was responding to AntiqueHunter's quote from people who say they aren't coming to conferences if they can't talk to women.

 

[Stellafane]

You have? How? I mean....ummmm...I have a friend who wants to know.

Hey, it gets better than that -- I've been propositioned at least twice by women while attending conventions (which is a pretty good percentage when you take into consideration I don't go to many). Another offered to show me around the town if I attended a convention where she lived. Another attempted to play footsie with me under an embarassingly crowded (with colleagues) table. In each case I declined, since I am happily married. And trust me, I'm no great shakes in the looks department at all.

I suppose that some men prefer the "just take a shot at all of 'em and maybe you'll hit one once in a while" approach. But I think I'm proof that all you have to do is act reasonably normal, friendly, and respectful, and (wonder of wonders) women -- and men for that matter -- will be interested enough in you so you'll be able to reciprocate without running the risk of appearing creepy. It's just not that difficult!

 

[Shaun from Scotland]

No, the quip about the naked skepchick calendar wins.

/thread

As they say in Scotland, that was an absolute belter!

 

[roger]

1. Approaching someone you haven't spoken to before in a confined space at 4AM and using a pickup line on them is creepy. The person who does so may not realize it is creepy but it doesn't stop it being creepy.

2. There's nothing wrong with telling people not to approach you at 4AM in confined spaces and use a pickup line. There's nothing wrong with saying this to people in general.

Absolutely true.

But after saying this, Rebecca went on to say that the other people got it, and thus weren't sexist and misogynist (I don't recall exact phrasing, but that was the gist). Basically saying he was being sexist. All we really know is that he did something very socially awkward. Anyone with Asbergers, say, could have done something similar, or someone with maybe not great social skills and have been up for, say, almost 24 hours. That doesn't make them sexist, it makes them unskilled in certain aspects of human behavior. I think it is very wrong to conflate lack of social skill with misogyny.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

That kind of makes me curious, though. I am sure the macho or goofy answer is a man would enjoy being objectified, at any time. To make it more of a general sex issue and not a specific woman's issue; would a man find it frustrating to be in a position where they are passionate about an issue; whether it be a sexual, social, religious, political, etc and he has himself a forum where he can potentially reach others to spread his message in hopes to make a difference. He makes his speech and hopes his message was well received by his audience. The responses he gets vary and while some are of approval, some are women either telling the women around the male speaker to shut him up; the women telling the male speaker, the sexual fantasies she's creating in her head, while watching him speak; and women saying that he deserves to be sexually abused as a result of what he said.

Would it make a man wonder if he was heard correctly? Did he accidentally block the mic with his penis? Was there something he said that somehow translated to trolling for sexual attention? Would men actually appreciate that type of response?

Men always appreciate the getting laid part. Afterwards, he would consider the other questions.

If you're speaking specifically about the skeptics "movement" (if there is such a thing), we would be approaching it from a different world view. If none of the women in the audience "got" my message, I wouldn't care as much, as long as the other 80% of the audience (the men) did. For women/Rebecca, you're hoping that more than 20% got your message.

 

[Aepervius]

She has breasts and a vagina. Therefore, she is not allowed to have or express an opinion.

By the same token we don't (have one) therefore *we are not allowed to express the opinion she overreacted* or if we do, it is not valid.

It is essentially what many said in this thread and the other.

 

[Starthinker]

Jesus.

No, no one is saying that. But you don't know what this attractive stranger next to you has been through. It is creepy to proposition someone in an elevator (or anywhere else, really, but enclosed spaces make it worse) regardless of whether they have been raped in one. FWIW, it is also creepy to release bees in an elevator regardless of whether the other person has been stung in one.

However, some people HAVE been raped in elevators/stairwells/closets/bathrooms and the like. Knowing that, is it unreasonable for a woman alone with a total stranger to be nervous or on guard?

The lengths some of you people are going through to defend a person who (AT BEST) was treating a woman like a piece of meat is remarkable. Also depressing.

Jesus, you are one of the ones reading WAY too much into this. Where did anyone say that "at best" he was treating her like a piece of meat? That's the big assumption everyone is making. Also, I never, ever said it was unreasonable for a woman to feel nervous, all I'm saying it's unreasonable for a man to predict every single instance in which a woman would feel nervous.

All he did was ask her to his room for coffee. She said no and he went along his merry way. It's sad that he was only probably thinking "Oh, well, it was worth a shot. No harm done." and many people are saying "Oh my damn, she could have been raped!!" So Rebecca felt uncomfortable, that's her right, all I'm saying (and don't read more into it) is that we shouldn't villianize the guy.

 

[Seismosaurus]

To me they seem very similar, woman alone, no easy way to extricate herself, and with a man who's intentions she was unsure of. In fact the second clearly seems worse, since the guy has indicated he wants sex, whereas in the first you were most likely just looking for your car.

I thought we'd already established that it's a personal failing on my part.

Elevators don't seem like "dangerous places" to me. Well lit, in a place where people use them all the time, the doors could open onto other people at any second - or if you hit stop, it sounds an alarm and is likely to attract immediate attention - many have CCTV cameras, which may or may not be watched and/or recorded. And all the guy did was ask a question in what seemed to be a rather polite manner - "Don't take this the wrong way, but..."

Public parking garages, on the other hand, just sit there being all dark and sinister, are unwatched, unlikely to be in any way observed late at night, have a reputation for criminal activity, and so on. And there's me, some silent stranger in the dark.

Seems like a world of difference, to me. Other guys seem to manage the whole thing better, but I've yet to meet one who could explain how in detail. Like you said, my failing.