Merged Skeptics vs. Knowers/Believers

[Hokulele]

Oh, I think we all know what it's like to have such an experience. When I was in the USA, Hcmom was driving me from Meteor Crater to Las Vegas, and on one long stretch of road, I looked up and saw a bright light in the sky. It appeared to be moving extremely fast, and after a couple of minutes, completely vanished without a trace. It sure appeared to be moving faster than an airliner could have.

The difference between you and me is that I didn't assume that the fact that I didn't know what it was was in some way significant, or that it was non-human in origin. I believe it actually was an aircraft, despite the fact that it appeared to be going faster than any aircraft was capable of doing. It might have been a satellite - Iridium or the ISS - catching the sunlight at a particular angle. I don't know. But I don't conclude from that fact that it was non-human in origin.

I have seen a number of odd things in the sky near Las Vegas. Of course, this probably has nothing to do with it.

 

[Akhenaten]

There's something about the whole UFO phenomenon that I've never been able to understand.

I've lived most of my life outside urban areas.

I've spent countless hours flying about the place at night in light aircraft and helicopters.

I've seen, approximately, thousands of objects flitting about the sky that I couldn't identify.

I can't even guess how many of the things I saw were real and how many were optical illusions, mirages, complete fabrications of my own mind or whatever, but I'll go out on a limb and say that the vast majority of them were actually there.

Every single unidentified (by me) object has provoked the same response.

"I wonder what that was."

Now, the thing I don't understand, at all, is the process that goes on in peoples' minds that makes them think they can produce an answer for that wonder, when it's clearly (to me) both pointless and impossible.

Why bother? Even if you were 100% correct in your analysis, so what? What's the next move?

Doesn't simple wonder suffice for some people? Do they analyse every rainbow they see? I have no idea what 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999% of the stuff I see in the sky actually is and I don't mind that I never will.

I'll bet I sleep better than the UFO nuts, and have better dreams.

 

[Akhenaten]

Yeah, I saw a UFO once too, and I have also drawn no conclusions about it. Basically, I figure that I'm in a better position to find out the truth if I admit I don't know than I would be if I pretended I'd already found it.

Yeah, that.

I babble sometimes. You said it better.

 

[Correa Neto]

Umm... here's the "flood".

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/blacksea/ax/frame.html

Seek and ye shall find!
OMG EVIDENCE!
No, please, no, whatever you do...DON'T show me evidence!

I know other people already pointed this out, but...

Care to explain how this can be taken as evidence for a global flood?

I will repeat again-
There are no reliable evidence pieces for a global flood. There will never be.
There are no reliable evidence pieces for Atlantis. There will never be.

Eagerly awaiting your rebuttal. Want me to open a new thread on it?

By the way, the same is valid for ancient astronauts.

 

[Cuddles]

Cats... pigeons....

Don't flatter yourself. The utter stupidity and dishonesty you repeat endlessly despite very clear explanations from numerous people hardly constitutes a cat. You don't even make a particularly entertaining plaything.

 

[SnidelyW]

There's something about the whole UFO phenomenon that I've never been able to understand.

I've lived most of my life outside urban areas.

I've spent countless hours flying about the place at night in light aircraft and helicopters.

I've seen, approximately, thousands of objects flitting about the sky that I couldn't identify.

I can't even guess how many of the things I saw were real and how many were optical illusions, mirages, complete fabrications of my own mind or whatever, but I'll go out on a limb and say that the vast majority of them were actually there.

Every single unidentified (by me) object has provoked the same response.

"I wonder what that was."

Now, the thing I don't understand, at all, is the process that goes on in peoples' minds that makes them think they can produce an answer for that wonder, when it's clearly (to me) both pointless and impossible.

Why bother? Even if you were 100% correct in your analysis, so what? What's the next move?

Doesn't simple wonder suffice for some people? Do they analyse every rainbow they see? I have no idea what 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999% of the stuff I see in the sky actually is and I don't mind that I never will.

I'll bet I sleep better than the UFO nuts, and have better dreams.

How did humanity get to this point in its evolution? I would think plain curiosity and a desire to make sense out of the very question you asked - "I wonder what that was?", was, and remains, a key part of our makeup.

From fire to other earthly life, chemical reactions to the properties of common things like water, mankind has eagerly embraced the search for knowledge, and continues the search for answers.

Perhaps skeptics keep the visionaries in check, and that is how we have expanded our thirst for knowledge, and perhaps been the reason for our relative evolutionary success.

It is interesting to me that in scanning posts in this forum, I have yet to come across a skeptics view of the hunt for a cure for cancer, to cite an example. Are skeptics skeptical by nature, or is it developed?

So skepticism is absolutely neccessary in sorting out our world, so does it really matter who 'wins'?

Don;t we ALL win?

 

[RoboTimbo]

I KNOW that what I saw was beyond human capability

Yes and I fully understand your consequent distinction between “knowing” and “belief”. This is something the debunkers cannot get past – once you have had verified a “UFO” experience – you simply KNOW. It is no longer a matter of “mere” belief. There are certain things that no amount of “mistaken identity” or “delusion” explanations can disclose.

There are experiences people have where they may be uncertain…”Was it or wasn’t it?” and are never really sure that they might not have been mistaken… but then there are the experiences which simply defy all rational explanation.

I will tip my hat in the ring at this point and state I have had more than one such experience. In those experiences it is not so much either the shape, or the distance or the weather conditions or any other physical aspect of the experience that “makes” it so compelling…it is the BEHAVIOUR of the thing.

For example when a light in the sky is perfectly still (steady as a rock) with an apparent size of say ¾ of a full moon and as bright as a car headlight at say 200 metres, then it could be anything. A hovering helicopter springs to mind, or even an approaching aircraft on a direct line toward you, it COULD be anything… and one just looks at it wondering. But then when it makes a jump to the left of about 6 or 7 diameters, immediately reverses that to jump to the right about double that, then jumps back to the middle, to resume as steady a state - as it ever was. And that happens quickly enough so you almost doubt your own perceptual ability and so turn to the other people watching to say “Did anything just happen to that thing?” and they say yes, it jumped left, then right…” you just KNOW something is awry.

Or when you have your attention drawn to the sky with “Those stars are moving!” to see a trail of four “stars” slowly (a relative term) crossing the sky, with the two at the front oscillating as if they were attached in the middle by a solid bar and the others trailing along, but slowly gaining on the two in front, and you just KNOW they are way, way up there… you just KNOW that this is something that cannot be explained away so easily as “meteor” or “satellite” or anything of the kind.

It is their behaviour that does the trick!

And of course the Debunkers will say “oh, it could have been this, or it could have been that…” But all the while you KNOW it simply could have been NONE of the things they mention. THAT is the difference between knowing and belief.

Simply it is one of those things where you just HAVE to be there, otherwise the full impact of what just occurred can never be captured by a “mere” description. And if you ARE there (especially in the company of other witnesses), well, that changes EVERYTHING…

Now I know I won't CONVINCE anyone with this, I just wanted to try and convey what it is LIKE to have such an experience...

Since you are a 'knower' and not a mere 'believer', tell me what it was that you saw.

 

[King of the Americas]

There's something about the whole UFO phenomenon that I've never been able to understand.

I've lived most of my life outside urban areas.

I've spent countless hours flying about the place at night in light aircraft and helicopters.

I've seen, approximately, thousands of objects flitting about the sky that I couldn't identify.

I can't even guess how many of the things I saw were real and how many were optical illusions, mirages, complete fabrications of my own mind or whatever, but I'll go out on a limb and say that the vast majority of them were actually there.

Every single unidentified (by me) object has provoked the same response.

"I wonder what that was."

Now, the thing I don't understand, at all, is the process that goes on in peoples' minds that makes them think they can produce an answer for that wonder, when it's clearly (to me) both pointless and impossible.

Why bother? Even if you were 100% correct in your analysis, so what? What's the next move?

Doesn't simple wonder suffice for some people? Do they analyse every rainbow they see? I have no idea what 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999% of the stuff I see in the sky actually is and I don't mind that I never will.

I'll bet I sleep better than the UFO nuts, and have better dreams.

What was the closest, any of these things were to you?

What would or could you conclude if one of those things did a fly-by, that you thought was going to result in a collision?

I am not saying that I or you CAN know exactly what was seen, but we can eliminate what we know it doesn't match.

 

[King of the Americas]

I know other people already pointed this out, but...

Care to explain how this can be taken as evidence for a global flood?

I will repeat again-
There are no reliable evidence pieces for a global flood. There will never be.
There are no reliable evidence pieces for Atlantis. There will never be.

Eagerly awaiting your rebuttal. Want me to open a new thread on it?

By the way, the same is valid for ancient astronauts.

Isn't THAT a self-fulfilling notion, if ever I heard one...

Don't look for something, and you are SURE not to find it.

 

[King of the Americas]

Since you are a 'knower' and not a mere 'believer', tell me what it was that you saw.

What did you JUST read?

 

[King of the Americas]

How did humanity get to this point in its evolution? I would think plain curiosity and a desire to make sense out of the very question you asked - "I wonder what that was?", was, and remains, a key part of our makeup.

From fire to other earthly life, chemical reactions to the properties of common things like water, mankind has eagerly embraced the search for knowledge, and continues the search for answers.

Perhaps skeptics keep the visionaries in check, and that is how we have expanded our thirst for knowledge, and perhaps been the reason for our relative evolutionary success.

It is interesting to me that in scanning posts in this forum, I have yet to come across a skeptics view of the hunt for a cure for cancer, to cite an example. Are skeptics skeptical by nature, or is it developed?

So skepticism is absolutely neccessary in sorting out our world, so does it really matter who 'wins'?

Don;t we ALL win?

Only when truth is garnered and disseminated do all of us win.

Ignoring or dismissing evidence simply because it is contrary to commonly held beliefs, 'hurts' everyone.

 

[Akhenaten]

How did humanity get to this point in its evolution? I would think plain curiosity and a desire to make sense out of the very question you asked - "I wonder what that was?", was, and remains, a key part of our makeup.

Yup. That's why some people become astronomers. The one group that can be demonstrated never to report UFOs. That tells me all I need to know.

I can't see atoms, but I know that they're there, because some other scientists told me so.

It's that level of specialisation that is the hallmark of an advanced civilisation. UFO nuts are specialists too, but they picked a useless specialty is all. Twit happens.

From fire to other earthly life, chemical reactions to the properties of common things like water, mankind has eagerly embraced the search for knowledge, and continues the search for answers.

Some of mankind does that. Another section makes stuff up out of whole cloth. It's easy to tell the two groups apart, especially when they post their drivel on the internet.

Perhaps skeptics keep the visionaries in check, and that is how we have expanded our thirst for knowledge, and perhaps been the reason for our relative evolutionary success.

My bolding.

Visionaries, schmisionaries. Scepticism keeps the loonies on the path, speaking Pinkly.

It is interesting to me that in scanning posts in this forum, I have yet to come across a skeptics view of the hunt for a cure for cancer, to cite an example. Are skeptics skeptical by nature, or is it developed?

Well, we're born believing nothing. I'm 55 and I still "believe" nothing.

Therefore, it seems to me that scepticism is the default. Belief is the learned behaviour, not scepticism. Seems a waste of one's learning ability to me.

So skepticism is absolutely neccessary in sorting out our world, so does it really matter who 'wins'?

Don;t we ALL win?

The reality of an uncaring Universe wins. Every trick in every hand in every tournament that has ever been and ever will be played. Believe what one will, if your belief doesn't match reality, you'll lose.

 

[Akhenaten]

What was the closest, any of these things were to you?

The closest encounter I've ever had with an IFO was 10mm when an ant crawled across the inside of my sunnies.

UFOs, by their very nature, are generally at an unknown distance. That's why I couldn't identify them.

What would or could you conclude if one of those things did a fly-by, that you thought was going to result in a collision?

I would conclude that my initial perception was wrong. If it DID collide, the details would be revealed at the subsequent Inquest, and the object would no longer be U. Presumably it would already have stopped being F.

I am not saying that I or you CAN know exactly what was seen, but we can eliminate what we know it doesn't match.

I can automatically eliminate sperm whales, the USS Enterprise, my niece's tricyle and and my late wife pretending to be an angel.

Doesn't put me much closer to an identification, does it?

 

[Rramjet]

Oh, I think we all know what it's like to have such an experience. When I was in the USA, Hcmom was driving me from Meteor Crater to Las Vegas, and on one long stretch of road, I looked up and saw a bright light in the sky. It appeared to be moving extremely fast, and after a couple of minutes, completely vanished without a trace. It sure appeared to be moving faster than an airliner could have.

The difference between you and me is that I didn't assume that the fact that I didn't know what it was was in some way significant, or that it was non-human in origin. I believe it actually was an aircraft, despite the fact that it appeared to be going faster than any aircraft was capable of doing. It might have been a satellite - Iridium or the ISS - catching the sunlight at a particular angle. I don't know. But I don't conclude from that fact that it was non-human in origin.

Don’t get me wrong arthwollipot but the two examples I cited were nothing like your cited “experience(s)”. I grew up in a remote mountainous region, the closest town (pop.n 800) was 6km as the crow flies (25 by road) and the nearest “city” was 180 km away. We did not even have TV reception, so aside from the odd program shown in school (such as the moon landing) I never really saw TV until the mid-70s. At night we used to go out and watch the stars for entertainment, mainly because it was a constantly moving feast of meteors of all sorts – one night a large meteor (I presume though I never saw it) passed horizontally above my head - perhaps within 10 to 15 meters, travelling FAST! I heard it coming (the hiss of the air was indescribable), I hit the ground, but of course THAT was belated, it had already passed before I even reacted! I looked up just in time to see the tops of the next mountain ridge over (perhaps 10 km away) lit up with a tremendous explosive burst of light. I counted (as you do for lighting to thunder) waiting for the noise of an explosion – it never came. Darkness returned. The point is, that in all those years, I (we) never saw anything that we could not explain. There were also satellites we watched avidly – although there were very few in those early days. And there were military aircraft of various types (in those days it seemed sonic booms were not considered a problem by the military!). But the view of the Milky Way was just incredible! No light pollution of ANY kind. Now – even in remote areas, the night sky is only a fraction of what it used to be because of light pollution.

So, with all those years of lying on my back on top of a mountain staring at the night sky, I saw lots of things, but critically, nothing that was not explicable in “mundane” terms – and yes there were some pretty amazing meteor behaviours - and shows – and some interesting manoeuvres by various aircraft - by but NOTHING prepared me for my first UFO encounter! The experience was totally different than anything that had gone before. The thing is - that the thing WAS different. Plus I have recounted only the “mundane” aspects of just two encounters, because… well, you just wouldn’t believe me otherwise. So I KNOW there is something that we are just not getting about the reality that we perceive according to our current understanding of it. There is something ELSE going on. I would very much like to know WHAT we are missing, but I don’t assume ANYTHING at all about what it is we are missing. How can I? There is just no reference point to do that with.

So I just wonder and I am somewhat offended by those who have not experienced such things (because you WILL know when you have) writing such experiences off as misidentifications, delusions or hoaxes –because I KNOW this is NOT the explanation. It is that simple.

 

[King of the Americas]

Yup. That's why some people become astronomers. The one group that can be demonstrated never to report UFOs. That tells me all I need to know.

That they can 'detect & avoid' high resolution photo or video outlets...?

I've read more than one report of full batteries, going dead in an instant, so as to result in no images being captured.

I'd LOVE to see something like this, when I am out and well equipped...but I never seem to. It was the one time I was out, with no camera, binoculars, or camcorder...

My guess is they make a living by NOT being seen.

 

[King of the Americas]

The closest encounter I've ever had with an IFO was 10mm when an ant crawled across the inside of my sunnies.

I can automatically eliminate sperm whales, the USS Enterprise, my niece's tricyle and and my late wife pretending to be an angel.

Doesn't put me much closer to an identification, does it?

So, we ARE in agreement "U.F.O's" do exist, in the form of non-human somethings, that can perform stunts we can't?

But that doesn't put us any closer to identification...?

Agreed.

 

[Akhenaten]

Yup. That's why some people become astronomers. The one group that can be demonstrated never to report UFOs. That tells me all I need to know.

That they can 'detect & avoid' high resolution photo or video outlets...?

That I don't need to look out for alien spacecraft. Leaves more time and visual resources to look out for real stuff.

I've read more than one report of full batteries, going dead in an instant, so as to result in no images being captured.

I've read more than one report that the enemy is approaching Helm's Deep. No images have been captured. (as yet)

I'd LOVE to see something like this, when I am out and well equipped...but I never seem to. It was the one time I was out, with no camera, binoculars, or camcorder. . .

Get some sunnies. Get an ant. Fill your boots.

My guess is they make a living by NOT being seen.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

 

[King of the Americas]

In other words, "I'm pretending my beliefs are true".

You had an experience. You have been unable to explain your experience. Now that's where a rational person stops -- he calls the experience "unexplained" and leaves it that way pending future observations which might help explain it. You, however, have instead taken the irrational step of abandoning ignorance in favor of claimed "knowledge" with absolutely no valid inference anywhere in between.

You're doing the same thing with your non-humans that a religious person does when he thinks "I don't understand how the universe got here, therefore a supreme being named Yahweh did it, here's a list of things we shouldn't do because they really piss Him off, and by the way He's going to have you tortured forever if you don't make friends with his son".

Your desire to believe in this story you've invented has overridden any interest you ever might have had in discovering the truth; you have abandoned reason for faith.

If you want to know which side is winning, then ask yourself which is the most plausible: a position backed up by reason and evidence, or a fairy tale with only your declaration of faith to support it?

People have been explaining all this to you for six pages now. Do you really not understand? Are you so committed to your faith that you're impervious to reason?

Ahhh,... "No."

And, "Reason and facts, are the ONLY thing I'm interested in."

 

[Akhenaten]

The closest encounter I've ever had with an IFO was 10mm when an ant crawled across the inside of my sunnies.

So, we ARE in agreement "U.F.O's" do exist, in the form of non-human somethings, that can perform stunts we can't?

But that doesn't put us any closer to identification...?

Agreed.

I described my ant as an IFO.

But does that put us any closer to reading comprehension?

 

[Correa Neto]

Isn't THAT a self-fulfilling notion, if ever I heard one...

Don't look for something, and you are SURE not to find it.

Prove me wrong. Go ahead.

Provide a mechanism which could account for a global flood.
Provide a mechanism which could account for the sinking of Atlantis (no, I am not speaking of Akrotiri or Helike- I'm talking about Atlantis, the island-continent).
Provide reliable evidence of ancient astronauts (sorry, myth-twisting will not be accepted).

Note that in the first two cases I already provided, more than once the reasons why I am comfortable enough to say "its impossible" even if someone more philosophically-inclined reminds me that the correct wording should be very unlikely.

Stop the old and tiresome whining about skeptics not willing to examine or accept the evidence. Let's se the cards in your hands. Let's see how good they are.

And by the way, prove that I am not finding anything because I am not looking for the evidence. Show me your evidences that I have never researched these subjects.

Lets see your cards.