Merged Skeptics vs. Knowers/Believers

[wollery]

KotA, you continue to simply ignore the simplest explanation, that what you saw could just have been optical illusion. You state that there are no human craft that could do this, despite also admitting that you haven't seen all human craft, and especially not the highly experimental ones, but are happy to assume that there could be another race of beings existing on this planet with technology sufficiently advanced to make manoeuvres that would kill human pilots.

So, faced with the choice that you could be mistaken or simply don't know, or making something up, you choose to make something up. That's the definition of a "God of the gaps" argument.

I think you need to ask yourself a very important question. Why would a technologically advanced race that originate on this planet keep themselves hidden from us? We are pretty technologically advanced, but we make no attempt to hide ourselves from other terrestrial species, and even make serious efforts to communicate with other species which may have complex higher brain functions.

If I were a member of this advanced species I'd want to prevent these stupid humans from potentially destroying the planet, something humans are more than capable of, and have almost done on more than one occasion, without any intervention from our supposed "betters".

Where are they, and what (besides showing off their fantastic aircraft to a small handful of bemused humans) are they doing?

 

[Marduk]

If I were a member of this advanced species I'd want to prevent these stupid humans from potentially destroying the planet, ?

I think thats a stretch, you are painting an unevidenced culture with our ideal values which arent supported either.
What if theyre here to watch us destroy the planet


"stupid humans" (I'm stealing this"
thanks

 

[Marduk]

You forgot the motie! Nobody knows what you're saying! Panic in the streets!

 

[arthwollipot]

Alright, if it was 'one' turn of an objected headed right for me, then I'd concede it could have been an illusion. This was 7 objects, and they weren't headed for me, and they weren't only located in one area in the sky, from one viewing angle...

And how would this explanation work to describe the two combining?

Even if your example IS one way something can appear to zoom off, from one point, this wouldn't explain a 90 degree angle 'turn'.

Yours is an 'unlikely' explanation...

It was an example, not an explanation, of how something can be one thing, but appear to be something else. I don't know what you saw, and I probably never will. But that lack of explanation is not a reason for me to conclude anything.

 

[arthwollipot]

...but that is just as likely for two of our pilots to play chicken as it is for two u.f.o.'s to perform stunts...

Again, you're assuming that they were close to each other, when you have no evidence whether this was the case or not.

 

[arthwollipot]

But "2" people suffering the very same delusion/psychotic break or hallucination...?

You clearly both saw the same illusion.

For the record, I believe "delusion" and "delusional" to be unnecessarily harsh words to use in situations like this. Your brain was probably fooled by an optical illusion. That happens all the time, and it is quite logical for two people to be fooled by the same illusion.

 

[arthwollipot]

Can "Raptors" combine to form one entity?

You're still assuming that they actually combined to form one entity rather than appeared to combine to form one entity.

 

[arthwollipot]

AGAIN, I never said I "know" what these thing were...

Rather, I can only claim to know what they weren't.

And you are absolutely right that they were not human-piloted aircraft. Probably. Now what?

 

[King of the Americas]

how about any qualified historian saying "they are here"
whos here ?
where ?

*cough*argument of authority*cough*

How many people 'believed' Troy was real, until they actually found it.

We did not write history, we just interpret it. And the older it is the worse job we do at it.

History becomes myth, and then truth escapes us.

...until someone looks for 'a' truth among the myths...

 

[BlackKat]

*cough*argument of authority*cough*

How many people 'believed' Troy was real, until they actually found it.

We did not write history, we just interpret it. And the older it is the worse job we do at it.

History becomes myth, and then truth escapes us.

...until someone looks for 'a' truth among the myths...

Actually a lot of people believed Troy was real. Just not all the aspects of Homer's myth. This was because the city state itself was accounted by numerous ancient Greek historians.

This is distinctly different from the Atlantis myth which had no additional historical corroboration.

 

[King of the Americas]

KotA, you continue to simply ignore the simplest explanation, that what you saw could just have been optical illusion. You state that there are no human craft that could do this, despite also admitting that you haven't seen all human craft, and especially not the highly experimental ones, but are happy to assume that there could be another race of beings existing on this planet with technology sufficiently advanced to make manoeuvres that would kill human pilots.

So, faced with the choice that you could be mistaken or simply don't know, or making something up, you choose to make something up. That's the definition of a "God of the gaps" argument.

I think you need to ask yourself a very important question. Why would a technologically advanced race that originate on this planet keep themselves hidden from us? We are pretty technologically advanced, but we make no attempt to hide ourselves from other terrestrial species, and even make serious efforts to communicate with other species which may have complex higher brain functions.

If I were a member of this advanced species I'd want to prevent these stupid humans from potentially destroying the planet, something humans are more than capable of, and have almost done on more than one occasion, without any intervention from our supposed "betters".

Where are they, and what (besides showing off their fantastic aircraft to a small handful of bemused humans) are they doing?

Alright, what you are failing to do, is applying the context of what I 'also' witnessed.

Optical illusion...such as what? Again, I am 'open' to a human-made solution, I just don't know about one. What I & a buddy of mine BOTH witnessed, defied my understanding of modern flight capabilities, even the F-22.

 

[LissaLysikan]

How about historians from every age saying, "We say so."...?

Originally Posted by Marduk
how about any qualified historian saying "they are here"
whos here ?
where ?

*cough*argument of authority*cough*

How many people 'believed' Troy was real, until they actually found it.

We did not write history, we just interpret it. And the older it is the worse job we do at it.

History becomes myth, and then truth escapes us.

...until someone looks for 'a' truth among the myths...

I see a trend here. KotA uses myth as substantiation of his beliefs, then admits that we have no real knowledge about the past (as far back as those myths - I think we can mostly agree that knowledge about the "recent" past is not so badly muddled).

As for people saying "We say so" about the UFO phenomenon throughout the ages - I have never read a serious historian interpret what has been found to include stories of extra-advanced technology that would correlate with interpreting UFOs as being non-human intelligence. And before anyone says it - Von Daniken was a fiction writer, not a scientist or historian, regardless of what he claimed.

So no, there have been NO credible witnesses reporting events that require more than mundane explanation.

 

[King of the Americas]

Actually a lot of people believed Troy was real. Just not all the aspects of Homer's myth. This was because the city state itself was accounted by numerous ancient Greek historians.

This is distinctly different from the Atlantis myth which had no additional historical corroboration.

You seriously don't believe in the "Great Flood" myth...?

Believe it or not, there WAS a flood that swallowed up cities, and possibly civilizations...now it wasn't the "global flood", but there's a clear record of ocean level changes, tsunamis, hurricanes, and any number of water-events.

Katrina was an example of how quickly water can consume a city.

In the story of Atlantis, was anyone saved by divine intervention?

*The Epic of Gilgamesh comes to mind...

 

[King of the Americas]

And you are absolutely right that they were not human-piloted aircraft. Probably. Now what?

Well, that's it, really. There's no where else to go, and nothing else to conclude.

There's something "non-human", 'up there', and they are a bit more capable than we are.

 

[LissaLysikan]

Optical illusion...such as what? Again, I am 'open' to a human-made solution, I just don't know about one. What I & a buddy of mine BOTH witnessed, defied my understanding of modern flight capabilities, even the F-22.

One of the things I do as a software engineer is 3D simulations.
One of the earliest lessons - you can cheat the eyes very easily without cheating the physics engine. People's eyes are not far enough apart to see 3D at any distance, so you have a free dimension to work with to make it LOOK like one thing is happening when something else entirely is. We actually run into complaints about that - if the camera view is at a bad angle it appears as if the objects are moving in physically impossible ways. All we have to do is shift the camera angle and things suddenly make sense. Being a living person not gifted with teleportation or the ability to revisit the scene from a different angle ... well, the reports of two people at virtually the same location does not even come close to ruling out optical illusion.

 

[LissaLysikan]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot
And you are absolutely right that they were not human-piloted aircraft. Probably. Now what?

Well, that's it, really. There's no where else to go, and nothing else to conclude.

You should have stopped here.

There's something "non-human", 'up there', and they are a bit more capable than we are.

Unjustified assumption.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Well, that's it, really. There's no where else to go, and nothing else to conclude.

There's something "non-human", 'up there', and they are a bit more capable than we are.

Yep, birds are 'up there' and they can fly while we can't. Airplanes are 'up there' and they can fly while humans can't.

 

[BlackKat]

You seriously don't believe in the "Great Flood" myth...?

Believe it or not, there WAS a flood that swallowed up cities, and possibly civilizations...now it wasn't the "global flood", but there's a clear record of ocean level changes, tsunamis, hurricanes, and any number of water-events.

Katrina was an example of how quickly water can consume a city.

In the story of Atlantis, was anyone saved by divine intervention?

*The Epic of Gilgamesh comes to mind...

Wow this thread meanders. I was merely trying to provide a counter to your myth becomes reality example in that the city of Troy never was considered a myth, only Homer's account of the war (still a myth to much degree). This was due to additional historical evidence and not just a single oral poem.

The point being that it distinguishes it from the Atlantis myth which has only a single source (Plato) and NO corroboration at all.

Anyhow, now you refer to the creationist farce that is 'flood geology':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_geology

Now to get back on track to UFOs (and your experience):

A single unreliable source is not valid evidence. Especially when it is a single viewpoint such as yourself and companion next to each other.

If you had corraborating accounts: views from different locations and witnesses that might establish correct positioning and distance that the human eye is incapable of doing from a single viewpoint...
Radar tracks, intercepted signals, photos or video from a variety of locations that do not show heavy processing, etc. would help too.

But your story, lacking any evidence or corroboration, is just like Plato's Atlantis.

 

[Nonpareil]

You seriously don't believe in the "Great Flood" myth...?

Believe it or not, there WAS a flood that swallowed up cities, and possibly civilizations...now it wasn't the "global flood", but there's a clear record of ocean level changes, tsunamis, hurricanes, and any number of water-events.

Where?

 

[Correa Neto]

It was not directed towards me, but...

You seriously don't believe in the "Great Flood" myth...?

I am not aware of any reliable evidence pointing towards a global flood. Sorry, eustatic global sea leval changes after the last Ice Age do not qualify as a flood. Sea level rise rates were low enough to give everybody time to move to higher grounds.

Believe it or not, there WAS a flood that swallowed up cities, and possibly civilizations...now it wasn't the "global flood", but there's a clear record of ocean level changes, tsunamis, hurricanes, and any number of water-events.

Evidence?

Katrina was an example of how quickly water can consume a city.

In the story of Atlantis, was anyone saved by divine intervention?

*The Epic of Gilgamesh comes to mind...

New Orleans was hit badly but its still there!
Think of how many cities were hit by tsunamis, floods, hurricanes recently and in the past and recovered. Lisbon is an example.