Merged Skeptics vs. Knowers/Believers

Yes if a scout comes back claiming to have seen enemy artillery the commanders are probably going to believe him, they know enemy artillery exists...

If the scout comes back saying he saw an angel, aliens, giant 1400 meter high talking bananas or anything else we have no confirmatory evidence for he is probably going to get strange looks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Cook_(Blackadder)
:)

So without hardened steel, those cuts would have taken a LOOOOOOOONG time...

Yes, very likely. I imagine Stonehenge, the Pyramids, the great wall of China, the Colossus and many other ancient feats of engineering took a long time as well. Why do you think that's a reason to believe it couldn't have been humans that did it?

All we DO know is that we are being "visited" by strange and weird and scary and wonderful and incomprehensible phenomena.

Well, I suppose it's nice to see you've given up the pretence that you were simply trying to tell us that UFOs exist and that you're finally admitting to holding unsubstantiated beliefs. Of course, we all knew that anyway, but maybe this is a sign that you're going to stop with the pathetic dishonesty and dodging and actually engage in intelligent conversation. Not that I'll be holding my breath waiting for that to actually happen.

(I suggest)

Yes, you suggest a lot of things. When it comes to actually backing up any of your suggestions you tend to be rather shorter on the ground.
 
I still have to see a case reasonably well-built for an "in-house" UFO "theories"; most of them are, sorry, laughable.

Lets check briefly some issues.

First of all, the killer argument. No evidence. Not a single shred. Not a single steel tool, no fossil tire, rusty turbine, nothing. Mind you, its not just the absence of fossil record for a species, its for a genus and possibly family or even higher. Whom they evolved from? Dinosaurs? Squids? Birds? Some other hominid? Not a single fossil of one of these critters being more "brainy" than expected? But wait, it gets worse! A technological civilization needs resources to grow. Where are their ancient mines? Why don't we find evidences that someone has been mining significant volumes of cooper, iron, uranium, etc. (and with advanced tech) from the deposits we are currently mining? Where are their farms? Where are their tools and buildings? Come on, these folks are proposing a civilization with advanced tech (advanced when compared to ours nowadays) in the past and pointing at stone buildings? Where's the concrete, where's the steel? Where are the tools? Not a single steel bolt!

Consider the size requirements of a technological civilization. Look around yourself. How much can you downsize it? Its not just a matter of genetic diversity (where you would try to apply the controversial 50/500 rule); its also a matter of cultural diversity and task specialization. You need people to develop all the technological and cultural aspects of a civilization and produce all the goods (food, tools, machines, clothes, furniture, books, etc.) it needs. Your chances of achieving this with a small number of specimens are dim. How much people? I don't know, but certainly not 500 or 5000. So, even if you speculate that they are the last remnants of a long-gone great civilization, you are back to square one- no evidences for this long-gone advanced civilization. Not even a spark plug (warning! I just baited you).

KotA's pet speculation- "it came from beneath the sea" doesn't make it any better. So, you are hiding your city at the deep oceanic floor... Well, it must be a pretty small city, for the ocean floor has been mapped for military (and later scientific) purposes and nothing like this has been found. Just because you can't "see" the ocean floor, it doesn't mean no one else knows what's there and whats not. Add to this the fact that the areas with higher biological productivity are within sunlight reach and your proposed hidden submarine city is left with little if any space. Oh, now you will talk about underground cities under the sea... Its just a version of the "god-in-the-gaps" argument. You are trying to find a gap big enough to hide your civilization. The gap is not there, neither is the hidden civilization. Not to mention that a civilization of say, intelligent squids, would find a bit hard, for example, to develop and build internal combustion engines under the sea…

What's left? The hollow Earth, intraterrestrials? Please, all it takes to cripple this nonsense is Newtonian physics. Of course, we can also add recent stuff such as seismology.
Consider this before raising the “they have always been here” line again.
 
Simple-
Use a tool made of quartz or silex. Since these minerals have a hardness of 7 on the Mohs scale and granite is composed by feldspar (hardness 6) and quartz, it'll work. It'll take some time and perseverance, but so what?

You can also use a granite tool. It takes time but it can be done.
 
I still have to see a case reasonably well-built for an "in-house" UFO "theories"; most of them are, sorry, laughable.

New/different theories are laughed at... SHOCKING!

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What I am proposing is that evidence of their existence IS right in front of you. It is just that 'their' works have been attributed to our ancestors...

As far as the missing bodies, wires, or other technology, I can only remark that time manages to erase such evidence.

I don't know when this civilization existed, what materials they employed or made, or where their base might have been.

All of your questions simply don't have answers available to us, right now.

But it seems to me the height of arrogance to believe that we've made no mistakes in attributing every ancient ruin site to modern (relatively speaking) 'man'.
 
Simple-
Use a tool made of quartz or silex. Since these minerals have a hardness of 7 on the Mohs scale and granite is composed by feldspar (hardness 6) and quartz, it'll work. It'll take some time and perseverance, but so what?

You can also use a granite tool. It takes time but it can be done.

My carbide tipped chisel works just fine...

How long do you think it would take to make ONE of those diorite stones using a tool made from quartz?
 
Yes, very likely. I imagine Stonehenge, the Pyramids, the great wall of China, the Colossus and many other ancient feats of engineering took a long time as well. Why do you think that's a reason to believe it couldn't have been humans that did it?

Well, if 'we' constructed one site, then we must have constructed ALL of them...?

This could ONLY be the case. It is IMPOSSIBLE for another race to have done it, because well we say so...?
 
Oh, I am laughing at "new/different theories"?

Wild speculations, KotA, they are nothing but wild speculations. They don't even come close of being a hypothesis. Might give rise to some cool SF/Fantasy tales, but that's all. Yes, I am laughing at wild baseless speculations. Want me to stop laughing? Show evidence I'm wrong and I'll eat a big cold crow.

So, the works of this advanced civilization have been mistakenly attributed to our ancestrals, eh? Where are their steel tools, the laser-cutting machines, vimana spare pieces, etc.? Show us a single tool of this advanced lost civilization. Something which is clearly out of place or unexpected. A 5ky-old steel screw or bolt, for example.

You can only think that time erased all other evidences of their presence? Well, I say there are no evidences left because these lost civilizations never existed.

You think its arrogance to attribute all the archeological record to "man"? That's supposed to be an argument? Show me evidences they were not built by humans.

I pity those who try to lower the intelligence and skills of our ancestors.

All my questions have a simple, straightforward answer, one that has no known inconsistencies- there has never been and there is not such a hidden civilization.

By the way, time also "erased" the undersea cities they are supposed to have right now?
 
My carbide tipped chisel works just fine...

How long do you think it would take to make ONE of those diorite stones using a tool made from quartz?

Suppose it takes ten years. I don't think that's a problem, do you?

Where are the steel tools and laser cutters these folks had according to your wild speculations? Remember we are not talking about a civilization soooooo oooooold as woos claim to be....
 
I still have to see a case reasonably well-built for an "in-house" UFO "theories"; most of them are, sorry, laughable.

Lets check briefly some issues.

First of all, the killer argument. No evidence. Not a single shred. Not a single steel tool, no fossil tire, rusty turbine, nothing. Mind you, its not just the absence of fossil record for a species, its for a genus and possibly family or even higher. Whom they evolved from? Dinosaurs? Squids? Birds? Some other hominid? Not a single fossil of one of these critters being more "brainy" than expected? But wait, it gets worse! A technological civilization needs resources to grow. Where are their ancient mines? Why don't we find evidences that someone has been mining significant volumes of cooper, iron, uranium, etc. (and with advanced tech) from the deposits we are currently mining? Where are their farms? Where are their tools and buildings? Come on, these folks are proposing a civilization with advanced tech (advanced when compared to ours nowadays) in the past and pointing at stone buildings? Where's the concrete, where's the steel? Where are the tools? Not a single steel bolt!

Consider the size requirements of a technological civilization. Look around yourself. How much can you downsize it? Its not just a matter of genetic diversity (where you would try to apply the controversial 50/500 rule); its also a matter of cultural diversity and task specialization. You need people to develop all the technological and cultural aspects of a civilization and produce all the goods (food, tools, machines, clothes, furniture, books, etc.) it needs. Your chances of achieving this with a small number of specimens are dim. How much people? I don't know, but certainly not 500 or 5000. So, even if you speculate that they are the last remnants of a long-gone great civilization, you are back to square one- no evidences for this long-gone advanced civilization. Not even a spark plug (warning! I just baited you).

KotA's pet speculation- "it came from beneath the sea" doesn't make it any better. So, you are hiding your city at the deep oceanic floor... Well, it must be a pretty small city, for the ocean floor has been mapped for military (and later scientific) purposes and nothing like this has been found. Just because you can't "see" the ocean floor, it doesn't mean no one else knows what's there and whats not. Add to this the fact that the areas with higher biological productivity are within sunlight reach and your proposed hidden submarine city is left with little if any space. Oh, now you will talk about underground cities under the sea... Its just a version of the "god-in-the-gaps" argument. You are trying to find a gap big enough to hide your civilization. The gap is not there, neither is the hidden civilization. Not to mention that a civilization of say, intelligent squids, would find a bit hard, for example, to develop and build internal combustion engines under the sea…

What's left? The hollow Earth, intraterrestrials? Please, all it takes to cripple this nonsense is Newtonian physics. Of course, we can also add recent stuff such as seismology.
Consider this before raising the “they have always been here” line again.

If I was a proponent for non-human Earthling advanced technological races I would be checking my nostrils for tennis balls because I knew I just got served.

 
KotA's pet speculation- "it came from beneath the sea" doesn't make it any better. So, you are hiding your city at the deep oceanic floor... Well, it must be a pretty small city, for the ocean floor has been mapped for military (and later scientific) purposes and nothing like this has been found. Just because you can't "see" the ocean floor, it doesn't mean no one else knows what's there and whats not. Add to this the fact that the areas with higher biological productivity are within sunlight reach and your proposed hidden submarine city is left with little if any space. Oh, now you will talk about underground cities under the sea... Its just a version of the "god-in-the-gaps" argument. You are trying to find a gap big enough to hide your civilization. The gap is not there, neither is the hidden civilization. Not to mention that a civilization of say, intelligent squids, would find a bit hard, for example, to develop and build internal combustion engines under the sea…
The idea of civilisations on the sea floor has been raised by KotA on several different threads, and on one of them, I remember talking about a particular line of logic I had developed. Basically:

If extra terrestrials have made contact with us, then this proves they have better technology than us. This is shown in that they have
a) developed the equipment to find us from their planet
b) developed the equipment to travel interstellar distances
c)developed the equipment to locate a terrestrial or otherwordly signal from their planet.

None of which we are able to accomplish.

Noting this technological gap, would it be impossible that with their new technology, they may be able to outsmart some of our 'older age' technology?


This line of logic can be used in the context of underwater civilisations.

If some civilisation is right now sitting at the bottom of the ocean, something we also have yet to manage, where it won't get picked up, surely this demonstrates that this civilisation have significantly advanced technology as compared to ourselves?Surely with this advanced technology, there is at least some slight possibility that they have also developed the art of concealment sufficiently as to be unseen by our prying eyes? Seeing as it wouldn't be hard at all, even with current technology, to pick up something invisible to radar and sonar, or even satellite imaging, then perhaps this underwater civilisation can't be found simply because it doesn't want to be found.

That or it isn't there at all. However, the above scenario, in my eyes, is by no means a slim possibility.

Comments? Thoughts?
 
Well, if 'we' constructed one site, then we must have constructed ALL of them...?

This could ONLY be the case. It is IMPOSSIBLE for another race to have done it, because well we say so...?

Please stop with such transparent dishonesty. It's perfectly obvious to everyone, including yourself, that no-one has said any such thing, and that this is just another pathetic attempt to dodge the fact that yet another of your arguments has been utterly demolished. Your claim was an argument from incredulity that humans could be responsible for constructing this site because it would have taken too long with the tools they had. I countered this by pointing out that we know for certain that humans have constructed sites of similar size and complexity that must also have taken a lot of time, and generally a lot of slaves. Your argument is thus disproved because whether you want to believe it or not, humans have made similar efforts before.

The fact that it is theoretically possible for one site out of many to actually have been made by some alien race is not relevant here. There will always be the possibility of any number of incredibly unlikely things. However, the burden of proof lies with those claiming in favour of those unlikely things. Saying "It could have happened in this one case, therefore I believe it definitely did happen", which is essentially what your argument amounts to, is just plain stupid.

As far as the missing bodies, wires, or other technology, I can only remark that time manages to erase such evidence.

Except that it doesn't. We have evidence of life going back almost 4 billion years. Those are incredibly primitive single-celled organisms that are preserved only by the marks their bodies left as they decayed, yet we still have evidence that they existed. You are proposing that a species could evolve without leaving any trace of its evolutionary path, and form a massive, advanced industrial society that continues to exist to this day, all without leaving any trace at all. Except for some stone buildings at one site that have no trace of any more advanced tools than those that are known to have been used by humans at the time.

Seriously, do you even read what you write here? You claim these aliens are flying around the Earth right now, but that all traces of their civilisation and evolution have been erased by time. How can you possibly even consider that, let alone believe it? If you were arguing for dinosaur spaceships then sure, a lot of time has passed and it is conceivable we could have missed something. Unlikely, but at least vaguely plausible. But you're claiming that a species that was banging rocks together a few thousand years ago and coexists with us today has had all traces of its existence erased by the huge time separating us. That huge time in fact being 0. Utterly nuts.
 
...OR maybe...

'We' didn't do it at all...maybe 'they' DID, and maybe they are that lost civilization, and they escaped the terrestrial destruction...

Maybe they are just a little ahead of us, in this evolutionary race...?


Or... there are real gods, actual miracle working invisible entities who can, with a wave of the hand, create perfect finished works in even the hardest stone. They made these stone things in the ancient past as a practical joke on gullible people who are stupid enough to believe they were made by advanced Earthlings who live among us and hide in the deep, unexplored recesses of the planet. These gods wait in stealth until some easily duped sucker is alone or hanging out with other equally gullible rubes, then they create hallucinations in the minds of the gullible saps, visions of technologically advanced vehicles that fly in ways impossible for humans to endure and that morph into other configurations as if made from Play-Doh.

Since there is exactly the same quantity and quality of evidence to show that conjecture to be true as there is to support your crackpot notion being true, how, King of the Americas, would you tell the difference? Seriously.
 
You think its arrogance to attribute all the archeological record to "man"? That's supposed to be an argument? Show me evidences they were not built by humans.

Where's the evidence that they WERE built by 'us'?

Where are all these quartz-tipped tools made by Inca or whomever you propose built/shaped these stones...?

Why is your stance, that lacks physical evidence, any better than mine?

Why can't we propose that we DON'T know who built these things?

---

Tell me what kind of stone carving methods WERE employed by the Inca 2200 years ago.

Provide ONE Inca tool capable of cutting diorite...

---

Can't we examine these stones, and look for the marks of the original work?

And thus garner some insight as to how they were formed?
 
Or... there are real gods, actual miracle working invisible entities who can, with a wave of the hand, create perfect finished works in even the hardest stone. They made these stone things in the ancient past as a practical joke on gullible people who are stupid enough to believe they were made by advanced Earthlings who live among us and hide in the deep, unexplored recesses of the planet. These gods wait in stealth until some easily duped sucker is alone or hanging out with other equally gullible rubes, then they create hallucinations in the minds of the gullible saps, visions of technologically advanced vehicles that fly in ways impossible for humans to endure and that morph into other configurations as if made from Play-Doh.

Since there is exactly the same quantity and quality of evidence to show that conjecture to be true as there is to support your crackpot notion being true, how, King of the Americas, would you tell the difference? Seriously.

I find that the simplest answer is usually the correct one...
 
It was asked, "If this super technological civilization existed here, where's the evidence?"

So, I proposed that maybe everything we see, isn't our's... Pumapunku 'seems' like it very well could have been made by someone other than first century Inca without hardened steel tools.

I never said this was a certainty, or that I had proof that we didn't do it, or that the site proves I am right. I am merely proposing this as a possibility.

KotA, I just wanted to say thank you for giving me something very cool to look at. Wow, those ancient South Americans were some crazy cats. Wheel schmeel, gimme a rock and lets get the day started. Just look at this stuff...

http://www.tiwy.com/pais/bolivia/tiwanaku/puma_punku.jpg

I don't pretend to know how they made those structures. Ancient civilizations around the world have made some crazy things and the ancient South Americans were some of the best. The people that made Puma Punku were into some crazy stuff. Making crazy structures and getting as a high as a kite on crazy cactus. I love looking at that stuff. What doesn't happen to me at all when I'm looking at that stuff is to think OMG, this is not human. Humans could not have done this. I don't know what these scientist fools are thinking. I need to get to Barns and Noble right now and buy everything Erik von Daniken has ever written.

I have no doubt that humans made those structures. They have humans depicted on them and you can see that they were made for humans. Hey, look, some steps. Got two legs and need to climb some steps? Yes, sounds like a human. And why not make crazy stone structures that fit together nice and neat with no mortar? Mortar sucks. Mortar doesn't last. Who wants to keep up the mortar structures? They fall all apart in no time. I'm a god king and you guys better hop to it and spend the next decade or so making me something that's going to last forever.

Let's see... Puma Punka. Made to be used by humans, has humans depicted on it, has human remains all around it...

I'm supposed to think this was made by a non-human super advanced technology Earth species why?
 
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leafman91 said:
The idea of civilisations on the sea floor has been raised by KotA on several different threads, and on one of them, I remember talking about a particular line of logic I had developed. Basically:

If extra terrestrials have made contact with us, then this proves they have better technology than us. This is shown in that they have
a) developed the equipment to find us from their planet
b) developed the equipment to travel interstellar distances
c)developed the equipment to locate a terrestrial or otherwordly signal from their planet.

None of which we are able to accomplish.

Noting this technological gap, would it be impossible that with their new technology, they may be able to outsmart some of our 'older age' technology?


This line of logic can be used in the context of underwater civilisations.

If some civilisation is right now sitting at the bottom of the ocean, something we also have yet to manage, where it won't get picked up, surely this demonstrates that this civilisation have significantly advanced technology as compared to ourselves? Surely with this advanced technology, there is at least some slight possibility that they have also developed the art of concealment sufficiently as to be unseen by our prying eyes? Seeing as it wouldn't be hard at all, even with current technology, to pick up something invisible to radar and sonar, or even satellite imaging, then perhaps this underwater civilisation can't be found simply because it doesn't want to be found.

That or it isn't there at all. However, the above scenario, in my eyes, is by no means a slim possibility.

Comments? Thoughts?

You mean they managed to erase their fossil and archeological records?
Sorry, I don't think its plausible.

I can imagine small hidden bases under the sea (underground and under the sea actually) as less implausible- you might take a James Bond villain approach. But we are sill left with open questions about how to conceal the traces left while obtaining resources, food and energy, not to mention dealing with wastes. But a whole civilization, built by a species indigenous to this very planet? Sorry, no. Good theme for a sf/fantasy novel, however.

Note that in KotA's speculation, some structures (the usual suspects- Stonehenge, Great Pyramid) were built by this civilization not on the ocean floor. What a fail! And I will have to ask again where are the evidences of the presence of these beings? Certainly not way down below the ocean where I wanna be... These ideas may look cool at flicks like The Abyss and 10000BC(OK, I admit I liked that movie - shame on me), but the whole picture is utterly implausible.

Remember, if its a civilization of aquatic abyssal beings, they must somehow have created lots of technology without fire. How could they cast metals? Using heat from volcanoes at the mid oceanic ridges without becoming paella somehow ? Maybe using some chemicals? OK, but and the tech to develop the chemicals?

Its easier to build a more plausible case for aliens from other star systems visiting Earth undetected (it does not mean aliens are here right now). No need for faster-than-light travel. Small robotic probes with advanced sensors, stealth capacity and low IR signatures checking from orbit would not be detected if they kept themselves inside Earth's shadow cone and/or always at daylight hemisphere, for example. Heck, you can even imagine a huge (sub light) generation ship hidden beyond the Moon sending stealth scout craft or probes. But there are no reliable pieces of evidence to back this "less implausible" scenario also. So, its nothing, it has no value, its just another wild speculation, it is not a theory, it does not make UFOs as alien machines more likely. One needs reliable evidence to do so. Once the evidence is present, then the speculation may become a hypothesis and eventually a theory.

Got reliable evidence UFO buffs?
 
Questions for the Abyss people...

1) Hi, I live at the bottom of the sea with my sea monkey buddies and we make crazy techno-$#!% everyday. What did me and my sea monkey buddies have for lunch today? No, really. What do we eat? What food source does our society cultivate and depend on so that we don't have to worry about food and can put our time into crazy techno-$#!%?

2) Being a sea monkey at the bottom of the ocean is great. Well, sometimes the pressure is a little much! *rimshot* If there is a species of advanced being that has developed in the intense pressure environment of the sea floor and that is the environment they need, what the hell are they doing messing around up on the surface and abducting people?

3) Doesn't it get really boring at the bottom of the sea? I mean, the view sucks and eating mud can't be that much fun. Wait, I just answered question #2.
 
I find that the simplest answer is usually the correct one...

picture.php


Tommy wants to know if super-advanced abyssal sea monkey people coming up from the sea floor, abducting the humans and making the stone blocks with the humans on them, and somehow zapping there entire natural history from the fossil record is the simplest answer.

Garfield was about to do something terrible to Nermal and he really wants to get back to it.
 

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