Merged Skeptics vs. Knowers/Believers

[Marduk]

Can you perhaps provide any insight into the stone carving abilities, of the ancient South Americans?

your links are probably the worst on the net
heres what your link says

They are arguably the oldest, and most baffling ruins on the face of the Earth. It is hard to imagine how they did not come to be known as one of the wonders of the world like the Great Pyramid. Spectacular in its own right, the Great Pyramid is, yet it pales in comparison to the ruins of Puma Punku in Tiahuanaco, in South America.

heres the reality

Pumapunku is a large temple complex located in Tiwanaku, Bolivia. In Quechua, the name Puma Punku means, “The Door of the Cougar”. It is situated near the south eastern shore of Lake Titicaca, and sits on a plateau in the Andes at roughly 12,600 feet elevation. Pumapunku's construction is generally argued to have taken place beginning around 200 BC.

seems to be some inconsistency there, lets look at how they were carved shall we

Vince Lee is an Author Architech and explorer who has been consulted on various ancient sites that moved large megaliths. He theorized that the blocks were put into place by carving them first and then lowering them into place. This would have involved doing precise carving ahead of time to create the tight joints that are made to fit into prepared pockets existing in the wall. Then they would be towed up a ramp and above the wall where they would be placed on top of a stack of logs. Then the logs would be removed 1 at a time to lower the stones into place carefully. An experiment was done to see if this would work on a small scale; this accomplished limited success. In the event that they were unable to obtain the tight joints the first time the Incas would also have been able to lift the stones back up to correct their mistakes. They were not able to obtain as much precision as the Incas but they theorized that with more practice they could have accomplished more precise joints and done it with larger stones.

oh dear, seems the Inca are your lost advanced race, thats the guys who were annihilated by a few boatloads of spaniards, perhaps thats why you can't find any trace of their super advanced culture or spaceships

KOTA, you know nothing about history, you will continue to know nothing about history if you research using sites like the ones you posted. Wiki admittedly is not a great source of academic level data, but at least it has the right answers, now would you like me to post you some links to scholary sources that discuss south american indian architectural techniques, or would you prefer to pretend this post didn't happen and lie about the super duper advanced engineering that humans couldn't accomplish in future

 

[Burning Beard]

Can you perhaps provide any insight into the stone carving abilities, of the ancient South Americans?

Bah, I was about to but Marduk beat me to it. I found some stuff about Vincent Lee's experiments that were outlined above.

I got distracted by another article about the Chinese using bamboo drills to drill into jade stone... fascinating!

 

[King of the Americas]

Bah, I was about to but Marduk beat me to it. I found some stuff about Vincent Lee's experiments that were outlined above.

I got distracted by another article about the Chinese using bamboo drills to drill into jade stone... fascinating!

Link PLEASE!?

 

[arthwollipot]

I can't imagine making those cuts w/o a machine(s) or carbide tipped tools.

This is a failure of your imagination more than anything else.

Let's approach it from a different direction. The stone is destroying your tools. See if you can think of another way, a different way, of carving the stone that doesn't involve you destroying your tools.

 

[Marduk]

Bah, I was about to but Marduk beat me to it. I found some stuff about Vincent Lee's experiments that were outlined above.

I got distracted by another article about the Chinese using bamboo drills to drill into jade stone... fascinating!

I was lucky, I went off and watched a film and when I came back he still hadn't posted any support for his claim.

still waiting for any evidence of these "building sights featuring super hard stone, with precision cuts, that bronze age chisels couldn't accomplish? "
obviously the puma punku stuff was just a diversion as this part of south america actually passed directly from the stone age to the iron age,

what, you didn't know that KOTA, didn't your scholarly source tell you that ?

 

[Marduk]

Link PLEASE!?

www.google.co.uk

you have to put "china bamboo drill jade" into the little box to make it work properly

 

[King of the Americas]

This is a failure of your imagination more than anything else.

Let's approach it from a different direction. The stone is destroying your tools. See if you can think of another way, a different way, of carving the stone that doesn't involve you destroying your tools.

That's why I bought the carbide chisel...

The HSS bits I had are no more. The diamond tipped stuff I have 'does' a good job removing the bruised stone, but if you hit the solid stuff you start to loose the bit...

The cutting wheels do the most damage, but I can't fit them into all of the spaces I need to remove.

Right now, this is what I can afford. Ideally, I'd buy a mini-sand blaster and pneumatic hammer.

 

[King of the Americas]

Bah, I was about to but Marduk beat me to it. I found some stuff about Vincent Lee's experiments that were outlined above.

I got distracted by another article about the Chinese using bamboo drills to drill into jade stone... fascinating!

Digging through those sites I found this, "The development of the iron drill is probably responsible for the technical advancements seen in the carvings of this period."

Hardened steel...THAT'S how you remove hard stone.

When did the Americas, develop hardened steel?

 

[Marduk]

Digging through those sites I found this, "The development of the iron drill is probably responsible for the technical advancements seen in the carvings of this period."

Hardened steel...THAT'S how you remove hard stone.

When did the Americas, develop hardened steel?

they didn't, the site you got that from was talking about China, you have just been dishonest again, the full quote is

The achievements of the Shang jade carvers were adopted and ultimately surpassed by artists of the Zhou dynasty (c. 1027-256 bc). Surface decoration became increasingly sophisticated, with openwork featuring birds and dragons, as well as tiny, individually carved curls. The development of the iron drill is probably responsible for the technical advancements seen in the carvings of this period.

carry on and I'll start reporting your dishonesty to the mod team, you are breaking the rules

as for how they carved something as hard as diorite, duh, they used tools made from diorite, was that too simple an explanation for you to comprehend ?

 

[Burning Beard]

When did the Americas, develop hardened steel?

I don't think they did. Are you getting China and South America mixed up? Are you THAT inattentive or just testing us?

 

[King of the Americas]

I don't think they did. Are you getting China and South America mixed up? Are you THAT inattentive or just testing us?

Alright...I don't know what you are talking about...?

Bamboo drills used to carve Jade with quartz sand were genius. No doubt about it.

But the Pumapunku stones aren't Jade, and there's no bamboo there. They are diorite, just a little 'less hard' than granite. So without hardened steel, those cuts would have taken a LOOOOOOOONG time...

...OR maybe...

'We' didn't do it at all...maybe 'they' DID, and maybe they are that lost civilization, and they escaped the terrestrial destruction...

Maybe they are just a little ahead of us, in this evolutionary race...?

 

[Marduk]

Alright...I don't know what you are talking about...?

Bamboo drills used to carve Jade with quartz sand were genius. No doubt about it.

But the Pumapunku stones aren't Jade, and there's no bamboo there. They are diorite, just a little 'less hard' than granite. So without hardened steel, those cuts would have taken a LOOOOOOOONG time...

...OR maybe...

'We' didn't do it at all...maybe 'they' DID, and maybe they are that lost civilization, and they escaped the terrestrial destruction...

Maybe they are just a little ahead of us, in this evolutionary race...?

well then if they are then so are the ancient chinese, Jade is much harder than Diorite

what you didn't know that either ?

are you unaware that PumaPunku was built by the Inca too, even after you have been shown that this is the case ?
I'm quite sure everyone else reading this knows the truth, even if you are incapable of accepting it....


laughable King just laughable !!!


guess you got the thread titles wrong then, seems its not the "believers" who are the "knowers", but the "sceptics"

 

[Burning Beard]

...OR maybe...

'We' didn't do it at all...maybe 'they' DID, and maybe they are that lost civilization, and they escaped the terrestrial destruction...

I'd be interested to hear what an advanced civlisation is doing making rock carvings, growing corn and performing human sacrifice.

But the Pumapunku stones aren't Jade, and there's no bamboo there. They are diorite, just a little 'less hard' than granite. So without hardened steel, those cuts would have taken a

I never for one second suggested that the Bamboo Drill had anything to do with the South American ancients, just stated that I stumbled across that and it was fascinating. But it does go to show how resourceful humans can be .

So without hardened steel, those cuts would have taken a LOOOOOOOONG time...

Did you even read the test Marduk posted regarding how we can re-create the same features using traditional methods? Steel was not required.

Sure, it'd might have taken a long time. Doesn't mean it can't have happened.

You're clutching to old myths and mysteries that have pretty much been put to bed.

 

[arthwollipot]

That's why I bought the carbide chisel...

The HSS bits I had are no more. The diamond tipped stuff I have 'does' a good job removing the bruised stone, but if you hit the solid stuff you start to loose the bit...

The cutting wheels do the most damage, but I can't fit them into all of the spaces I need to remove.

Right now, this is what I can afford. Ideally, I'd buy a mini-sand blaster and pneumatic hammer.

Can you think of any other ways? I can. Several, that don't require expensive tools.

 

[Rramjet]

Marduk, thank you! In my eyes the Rogue River aircraft looked like a blimp the first time I saw its picture. Maybe Kitakaze or Rramjet would be so kind to explain if this possibility was accounted for in the case study...

If you read the very same part of my post you quoted, you'd know I'm not surprised one bit. As I said, although I am still 'on the fence', both of my feet are clearly hanging on the non-believers side...slowly feeling the pull of gravity.... It will take a fairly hefty pull from the believers side to get me shift the position of my feet!

Ummm...I guess you all missed the bit where the witnesses (all five of them) stated the the object moved off at the speed of a jet aircraft... I guess the blimps in 1950 had "powers" beyond our wildest imaginings.

ALSO...The AIR FORCE investigated the claims THEMSELVES and if "blimps" were the answer ...don't you think they would have been the very FIRST to say so ...instead they speculated "kite" and "Aircraft"...

Moreover, all the character assessments of the witnesses included words like "responsible", "reliable", etc...perhaps you should read the original reports carefully and in entirety before leaping to unfounded assertion.

The "blimp" theory is just a red herring that does NOT stand up in the face of the evidence. Facts. Research. These are what we must use to inform our judgements, NOT unfounded assertions and wild speculation.

The first hand accounts are so critical in all this. The research conducted the second port of call. Wikipedia should be the very last...

 

[Rramjet]

kitikaze -

I owe you an explanation of my position.

I will try to be succinct.

UFOs exist.
Aliens Exist.

BUT...WHERE are the "aliens" from?
We cannot conclude "ET" because there are too many other hypotheses.
"They" could (for example) be indigenous to earth - to them maybe WE are the "aliens".
"They" could be extra- or inter-dimensional beings...(or even intra...)
"They" could be manifestations of a global consciousness (al la Jung)
"They" could be ... well... we have no idea WHAT they could be really...
All we DO know is that we are being "visited" by strange and weird and scary and wonderful and incomprehensible phenomena.
The evidence for that is (I suggest) overwhelming.
It moreover should drive us to research... but the "naysayers" have current ascendancy... like all the naysayers throughout history, they currently have their day, but days pass, the future beckons, new evidence becomes apparent, ideas change, paradigms shift...

That's my position in a nutshell

 

[Correa Neto]

I would posit one simple question.

Let's take a person from the year 1800. How would you explain to that person what a computer was without him knowing what plastic is?

He would certainly be skeptical of your explanation of what a computer could do. See my point?

Sorry for the late answer. My cell phone hates JREF; sometimes I have to reload 3 or 5 times a page. Add to this a small screen and small keyboard...

Well, moving on. I fail to see any connection between what I posted before about the extremely weak, questionable or inconclusive at best nature of the UFO evidence presented so far (and this includes Rramjet's new thread on UFO evidence), but I'll give it a try.

Suppose a stealth bomber crashed in my farm back in 1800; let's forget about the "hows"- it just crashed there. I would have its bits and pieces. I could take them say, to the Royal Society of London. Maybe they could not understand how a motherboard works(ed) or what was its purpose. But they surely would understand its the product of a tech they do not have. All it would take is to look at a chip through a microscope. Call it "alien tech" if you want.

So, they would have reliable evidence -actually proof- of something manufactured, of high technology and unknown origin (assuming no "proudly made in USA" or "Made in Taiwan" tags are found).

And to date, UFO evidence quality is very, very far from anything like this.

 

[archis]

I was a pritty big sceptic, big fan of Randi's views. But by exploring and learing things I changed my mind to - i dont know nothing. I treat psyhics in same time with respect and scepticism. Every one should think of what you consider as a proof.

 

[BlackKat]

Ummm...I guess you all missed the bit where the witnesses (all five of them) stated the the object moved off at the speed of a jet aircraft... I guess the blimps in 1950 had "powers" beyond our wildest imaginings.

ALSO...The AIR FORCE investigated the claims THEMSELVES and if "blimps" were the answer ...don't you think they would have been the very FIRST to say so ...instead they speculated "kite" and "Aircraft"...

Moreover, all the character assessments of the witnesses included words like "responsible", "reliable", etc...perhaps you should read the original reports carefully and in entirety before leaping to unfounded assertion.

The "blimp" theory is just a red herring that does NOT stand up in the face of the evidence. Facts. Research. These are what we must use to inform our judgements, NOT unfounded assertions and wild speculation.

The first hand accounts are so critical in all this. The research conducted the second port of call. Wikipedia should be the very last...

No one can accurately assess speed and distance with the Mark I Eyeball.

A blimp is an aircraft. Also, if it was a blimp, it would have likely been a Navy blimp having wholly nothing to do with the Air Force.

It does not matter if the witness is thought to be 'responsible' or 'reliable'. No one is sacrosanct. Especially when they've probably been drinking all day.

 

[King of the Americas]

I'd be interested to hear what an advanced civlisation is doing making rock carvings, growing corn and performing human sacrifice.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but would you need to date the site, to make those statements? I live in a house, but 'I' didn't build it.

I never for one second suggested that the Bamboo Drill had anything to do with the South American ancients, just stated that I stumbled across that and it was fascinating. But it does go to show how resourceful humans can be .

Agreed.

Did you even read the test Marduk posted regarding how we can re-create the same features using traditional methods? Steel was not required.

Sure, it'd might have taken a long time. Doesn't mean it can't have happened.

I am having some difficulty locating the actual hardness of diorite. The Egyptians used to to shape/work granite, so it is a very hard rock. Jade rates around 6 on the Mohs scale.

So far as I have found, the two material jade and diorite have similar hardnesses...

That said jade was used to 'adorn' building, items, and the like. At Pumapunku, diorite WAS the building.

You're clutching to old myths and mysteries that have pretty much been put to bed.

I'm not clutching to anything.

I just provided the information that was requested.

---

It was asked, "If this super technological civilization existed here, where's the evidence?"

So, I proposed that maybe everything we see, isn't our's... Pumapunku 'seems' like it very well could have been made by someone other than first century Inca without hardened steel tools.

I never said this was a certainty, or that I had proof that we didn't do it, or that the site proves I am right. I am merely proposing this as a possibility.