Skepticism and The Normal

Mobyseven, you're welcome to join in. I think, however, that what you are saying has already been tried, but I won't be surprised if you continue. It has been pointed out several times that something cannot be both objective and subjective, yet BF persists in stating that it can. Further, it is not possible to pin him down on exactly what he means by 'objective' and 'subjective'. In fact, when you can get anything close to a coherent response on the question, he'll switch between definitions from one sentence to the next. And he will not admit he's wrong, even, or perhaps especially, when it is clear.

I've been in the same situation as you, seeing the obvious flaws in BF's postings, and thinking I just needed to point them out for the scales to fall from his eyes. The sad fact is that it's all been said before, many times, and BF is either unable or unwilling to understand. He has stated that 'success' for him is a massive thread which people give up responding to. To all intents and purposes, he is a troll, since he is provoking responses and not taking any notice of what those responses say, except to reply to them in a way to provoke more responses. He is either not interested in or not capable of any debate that involves comprehending the points put to him. He uses the wrong words, and sticks by those words when the error is pointed out to him, claiming that we are the ones who do not understand.

He will introduce claims into the discussion, which he then fails to back up (E.g. Pythagoras killed the person who invented 'zero'), and which collapse under investigation. He will reply to refutations of an argument with a whole lot of links which he has plainly just googled; these links very often oppose his case, since he has not read them, but when this is pointed out he ignores this.

He varies the tone and style with which he addresses each participant, apparently in a deliberate way, supposedly echoing the poster, but in practice he has insulted various posters without provocation. He refers to 'tit for tat' frequently, by which he means this matching of response style, but also the line by line addressing of a poster's reply which he has stated is essential for us to 'get it'; until just now, when it's not so important since he doesn't have the time.

The underlying 'theme' of the thread is his 'OS012'. If you read this thread, the previous threads here and on badscience, and his website, I think you will be none the wiser as to what it is. About all we know is that it involves classifying ideas as 'true', 'false' or 'mystery', assigning the numbers 0, 1 and 2. We have his definitions of these terms, but they are not usable by anyone who uses English in the normal way. We do not have a simple worked example of how to do this classification. We do not have any information on what you do once you have made this classification. It seems that any time we get close to focussing on this, a tangent is introduced.

Really, the best thing is for everyone to ignore him, but he has a knack of posting such obviously incorrect statements in way that draws people in, and manages to irritate them, and sometimes suggest that he might possibly be understanding, just enough to keep them posting for a while. And, once, he did pay out on a promise to pay $100 if proved wrong.

Hmm, this seems to be my summary post. I guess I should stop posting after this. :)
 
Mobyseven,

Hi,

This is what you are dealing with:

OS 0 1 2 for Slowpokes

An immediate empirical experiment to view the three values operating in your mind in a few simple steps.
<snip>


6.) Future is Mystery, Past is False, and Present is True.

7.) This is the realm of the three values in modeling and communication that OS 012 addresses. It is a perfect model of objective/subjective reality and the variations of truth that we use to navigate.

He has also said that truth is objective, false is subjective (I can't remember about mystery)... Whatever he thinks that means.

Yes, we have pointed out subjective truths and objective falshoods, and the degrees of truth (as Hokulele mentioned).


I've just realised that his Angelina Jolie is beautiul statement probably means he thinks that "beauty is truth and ugly is false"... (I know that this compares an abstract noun with an adjective and is thus meaningless, but that seems to be the sort of confusion that BF achieves)​

Jim
 
I will wait to hear his reply (if he replies).

But from what you're saying, this sounds like another Christophera (but a little bit less potent).

If you don't know who Christophera is...check out the CT subforum. 'Nuff said.
 
...but it is his claim that beauty in music is objective.

Also, the definitions of subjective and objective have nothing to do with the number of values in a logic system. They are, by definition, antonyms and to suggest that something which is objective is also subjective would be a contradiction. In a way it would be a type of (p & ~p) argument.

Well put, and pretty much already covered in this thread (though I don't blame you for not reading all 67 pages!) but BF is in a world of his own. From one of his very recent postings:

I say that beauty is both objective and subjective, and the objective quality of beauty is found in symmetry, harmony, and balance, relative to the form of media which expresses it. Harmony, symmetry, and balance all share some essence in common, and all are completely objectifiable and measurable.

...

Any arguments which state objective beauty is not measurable are simply not paying attention. Any argument which tries to prove the existence of subjective beauty are irrelevant, as beauty is both an objective and subjective phenomenon, and are not in conflict.

Simply put, NONE of you have been able to show how symmetry, harmony, and balance are not objective, and thus none of your arguments against beauty's objective qualities can hold water.
 
P1: An objective judgment does not require a personal judgement or evaluation. As such, an objective truth is a truth that can be recognised as true by everybody.

P2: If a judgment is not objective (i.e. - it requires a personal judgement) then it is subjective.

P3: If beauty in music is objective then everybody would recognise the same music as being beautiful.

P4: Not everybody recognises the same music as being beautiful.

CONC: Therefore, beauty in music is subjective and not objective.

Can I make a suggestion, Moby ?



There is a sense in which mental constructs such as beauty can be more than subjective but less than objective, and acknowledging this intermediate perspective might aid understanding between bubb and the others.

It has been posited that in between subjective reality and objective reality lies consensus reality, which can be thought of as the aggregate of our individual subjective realities.

Thus, asking one person to define female beauty produces entirely subjective and therefore insignificant results.

But asking 10,000 people (of a particular culture) to define female beauty produces a standard or ideal of beauty, the parameters of which are measurable (objectifiable), and against which others could be judged.

This "ideal" is still not "objective" though, because it varies from culture to culture, and within a single culture over time.

But it has validity in its context.

Therefore, I could make the statement that "AJ is a beautiful woman" in complete sincerity (meaning that I know that in my society she approaches the ideal of beauty), while adding that "personally, I think she looks weird", and this would not be a contradiction.

In which case, AJ would be "consensually" beautiful, but subjectively not.

We can apply the same logic to the music argument ; I can understand that John Coltrane has composed the most beautiful examples of free-form jazz (because thousands of jazz-lovers tell me so), and yet personally hate it. No contradiction.

My conclusion is that P2 is an incorrect assumption, Moby.

I agree with you that beauty is fundamentally subjective (eye of the beholder, etc); I also agree with you that it's not objective.

But in between, there exist consensual standards, norms, and ideals of beauty, which have objective validity and influence (ie they're real).



Gnu.
 
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We can apply the same logic to the music argument ; I can understand that John Coltrane has composed the most beautiful examples of free-form jazz (because thousands of jazz-lovers tell me so), and yet personally hate it. No contradiction.
No contradiction as long as you accept that beauty is a subjective quality of the music. If beauty is an objective quality, however, then all people should find the music equally beautiful.
 
Can I make a suggestion, Moby ?



There is a sense in which mental constructs such as beauty can be more than subjective but less than objective, and acknowledging this intermediate perspective might aid understanding between bubb and the others.

It has been posited that in between subjective reality and objective reality lies consensus reality, which can be thought of as the aggregate of our individual subjective realities.

Thus, asking one person to define female beauty produces entirely subjective and therefore insignificant results.

But asking 10,000 people (of a particular culture) to define female beauty produces a standard or ideal of beauty, the parameters of which are measurable (objectifiable), and against which others could be judged.

This "ideal" is still not "objective" though, because it varies from culture to culture, and within a single culture over time.

But it has validity in its context.

Therefore, I could make the statement that "AJ is a beautiful woman" in complete sincerity (meaning that I know that in my society she approaches the ideal of beauty), while adding that "personally, I think she looks weird", and this would not be a contradiction.

In which case, AJ would be "consensually" beautiful, but subjectively not.

We can apply the same logic to the music argument ; I can understand that John Coltrane has composed the most beautiful examples of free-form jazz (because thousands of jazz-lovers tell me so), and yet personally hate it. No contradiction.

My conclusion is that P2 is an incorrect assumption, Moby.

I agree with you that beauty is fundamentally subjective (eye of the beholder, etc); I also agree with you that it's not objective.

But in between, there exist consensual standards, norms, and ideals of beauty, which have objective validity and influence (ie they're real).



Gnu.

I have to respectfully disagree with you there:

The "consensual" judgement is still a subjective judgement, no matter how you cut it.

It is simply the averaging out of a large number of subjective judgements to produce a social "yardstick".

This "yardstick" however is just as prone to change as any other subjective judgement is - that the variances only really show on a longer timescale than variances in individual subjective judgements doesn't change that the overall judgement is still subjective.

An averaging out of a number of subjective judgements is necessarily still subjective.
 
again, my apologies for not having time to maintain this discussion this week. I am currently overwhelmed with work and two deadlines.

I will continue this discussion, please do not mistake my absence in presence for an absence of argument!
 
mojo said :

No contradiction as long as you accept that beauty is a subjective quality of the music. If beauty is an objective quality, however, then all people should find the music equally beautiful

moby said

An averaging out of a number of subjective judgements is necessarily still subjective.



I agree, with both of you. Beauty is a human construct, and therefore subjective in either individual or aggregate form.

I'm trying to point out that that the aggregate form has a reality distinct from individual perception - because this aggregate ideal can be quantified and measured (and for the purposes of the argument, AJ comes close to this ideal).

So, if I make these two statements :

1. I think that AJ is beautiful
2. I think that Edith Ordure, 63, 4 foot 11", big nose, bad teeth etc, is beautiful

These statements are both true, but they're not equivalent.

I think Edith Ordure is beautiful because I've been married to her for 40 years, I love her dearly, and she's the apple of my eye. So she's beautiful, right ?

But when I say "AJ is beautiful", I mean something quite different; I mean that by certain objective standards, she conforms to the ideal of beauty, in my society. In a way that, I would have to admit, Edith does not.

So, I understand that Edith is beautiful, and yet not beautiful, at the same time.

In other words, if I was abducted by aliens, and they asked me to give them an example of beauty in my culture, the answer "AJ" would have more validity than the answer "Edith Ordure".

It seems to me, though I may be wrong, that when you were all arguing with bubb on this point, the confusion arose because he seemed to be claiming that AJ was objectively beautiful. (Maybe he was). But I took him to mean that she was "consensually" beautiful, in which case she could indeed be consensually beautiful but subjectively weird, at the same time.


So I'm suggesting that while AJ is not objectively beautiful, she is more than subjectively beautiful.

Do you see what I mean ?


Gnu.
 
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No, he was clearly arguing that AJ was objectively beautiful. For example, when faced with a culture that would not in fact see her as beautiful, he argued that they merely had yet to discover her beauty. The implication was not that these people join the growing consensus, but that the standards by which they judged beauty were primitive or perhaps just wrong, and that AJ should be beautiful to all observers. Note also how he derides and denies those who have come saying AJ is NOT beautiful.

Gnu, I can certainly concede that, intersubjectively, within our culture, AJ is considered beautiful generally. But this is certainly not what Rome was arguing.
 
hi z,

I'm not defending what bubb may have said.

Just suggesting that acknowledging an intermediate level of reality, consensus reality, could explain and resolve at least some of the previous misunderstanding.

gnu.
 
I agree, with both of you. Beauty is a human construct, and therefore subjective in either individual or aggregate form.

I'm trying to point out that that the aggregate form has a reality distinct from individual perception - because this aggregate ideal can be quantified and measured (and for the purposes of the argument, AJ comes close to this ideal).

While the aggregate form may have a reality distinct from my and your inividual perspective this is only because it is an averaging of society's standards, some of which we may agree with and some of which we may not.

So, if I make these two statements :

1. I think that AJ is beautiful
2. I think that Edith Ordure, 63, 4 foot 11", big nose, bad teeth etc, is beautiful

These statements are both true, but they're not equivalent.

I think Edith Ordure is beautiful because I've been married to her for 40 years, I love her dearly, and she's the apple of my eye. So she's beautiful, right ?

If you think she is beautiful, that is your own subjective judgment on the matter. I am not saying she is not beautiful, I'm simply pointing out that if you think she's beautiful, that is entirely your prerogative. Given the reasons you have given, it seems perfectly rational that you would think she was beautiful (and that you'd have the right to be offended if anybody openly challenged that statement).

However, think of it from this perspective. What if someone else met your wife and your wife inadvertenly insulted them through something she said? What would that person's judgment of the beauty of your wife be?

Now similarly, imaging that someone meets AJ and finds her the most objectionable person they have ever met. Is it possible that they may consider her to not be beautiful, regardless of society's standards?

But when I say "AJ is beautiful", I mean something quite different; I mean that by certain objective standards, she conforms to the ideal of beauty, in my society. In a way that, I would have to admit, Edith does not.

I would suggest that you are misusing the word 'objective' here. AJ doesn't conform to any objective standards within a society. She instead confroms to the subjective average of a society.

Objective truths do not change between different cultures.

So, I understand that Edith is beautiful, and yet not beautiful, at the same time.

I wouldn't put it like that to her...;)

I think a better phrasing of that would be to say that you think Edith is beautiful, but you understand that she does not conform to the societal idea of beauty.

In other words, if I was abducted by aliens, and they asked me to give them an example of beauty in my culture, the answer "AJ" would have more validity than the answer "Edith Ordure".

But only because they were asking you for an example of beauty in your culture. Fifty years ago Marilyn Monroe would have been a much more appropriate response. If you were a Latin American abducted by aliens you may be more inclined to say Shakira.

Similarly, if you lived in a culture where "Edith Ordure" was worshipped as a God, that would be a perfectly valid response to give.

It doesn't make your judgment an objective judgment. It just means you are taking into account the majority of subjective judgments in your culture.

It seems to me, though I may be wrong, that when you were all arguing with bubb on this point, the confusion arose because he seemed to be claiming that AJ was objectively beautiful. (Maybe he was). But I took him to mean that she was "consensually" beautiful, in which case she could indeed be consensually beautiful but subjectively weird, at the same time.

It may take some time before I figure out exactly what BF is arguing about. He did however claim that beauty was objective. I got into the discussion when it stepped into the realm of music though, so I cannot comment on exactly what he said about AJ.

So I'm suggesting that while AJ is not objectively beautiful, she is more than subjectively beautiful.

She is not 'more than subjectively beautiful'. She is subjectively considered beautiful by a large majority of people in society, thus making her an example of what a large majority of people in society consider to be beautiful.
 
Just suggesting that acknowledging an intermediate level of reality, consensus reality, could explain and resolve at least some of the previous misunderstanding.

Well, it could, except that it's wildly and irresponsibly off-base and incorrect.

There is no "intermediate level" of "consensus reality" to acknowledge. I don't care how many people believe that faeries make bread rise, that the Earth was created 6000 years ago in a week, or that sailing far enough to the West will make you fall of the edge of a planar world. No matter how large the consensus is that holds that belief, it remains objectively false.

Consensus belief is a good way of doing public opinion surveys. But when public opinion in 1870 held that space and time were independent and not related to the motion of the observer, they were simply wrong. The people, the vast majority of biologists, who believed that there was only one species of chimpanzee, were simply wrong. Much of the job of scientists is to dig new facts out of the coalface of reality that disproves what "consensus" has held to be true. Bonobo DNA didn't suddenly change to reflect the new "consensus reality" suggesting a new species.
 
please do not mistake my absence in presence for an absence of argument!

Neither coherent argument nor literacy has ever been a feature of your presence. They are equally absent from your posts whether you are present or not.
 
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very happy to see this discussion continuing in constructive and thoughtful form. Still swamped, so my participation is limited, but I greatly look forward to addressing my astute observations posted here lately.

And yes, I did state that AJ's beauty has a certain objective quality to it, it's apart of her knowledge, or an aspect of knowledge about her. It's obvious, we dont question this beauty in common language. Refrences to her historically would indeed include 'beauty' as part of her description,and not just that she is beautiful, but that she is considered one of the world's most beautiful.
 
very happy to see this discussion continuing in constructive and thoughtful form. Still swamped, so my participation is limited, but I greatly look forward to addressing my astute observations posted here lately.

And yes, I did state that AJ's beauty has a certain objective quality to it, it's apart of her knowledge, or an aspect of knowledge about her. It's obvious, we dont question this beauty in common language. Refrences to her historically would indeed include 'beauty' as part of her description,and not just that she is beautiful, but that she is considered one of the world's most beautiful.

Now that we've established that you hold the position beauty is objective, I would appreciate a response to my post...
 
Hi all,

I recently came across the works of Karl Grammer on attractiveness/beauty. According to him there are seven cross-cultural criterions for beauty:

1. youth
2. hormonal markers
3. averageness
4. symmetry
5. hair and skin
6. body-motion
7. body odour

here are some links to short summaries of his research:

Human Facial Attractiveness and Sexual Selection: The Roles of Averageness and Symmetry evolution.anthro.univie.ac.at/institutes/urbanethology/projects/face%20and%20body/Symmetry/index.html

Human Body Odour, Symmetry, and Attractiveness
evolution.anthro.univie.ac.at/institutes/urbanethology/projects/pheromones/Body%20Odour/index.html

Skin texture and female facial beauty
evolution.anthro.univie.ac.at/institutes/urbanethology/projects/face%20and%20body/skin%20texture/index.html

Male facial attractiveness: evidence for hormone-mediated adaptive design
evolution.anthro.univie.ac.at/institutes/urbanethology/projects/face%20and%20body/male%20facial%20attractiveness/index.html

Concerning the objectivity of it all, it’s not about consensus belief it’s about finding objective criterions which determine our sense of beauty. We consider AJ to be objectively beautiful not because the majority of society thinks so, but because she possesses objective attributes which are considered beautiful by human beings.
 
We consider AJ to be objectively beautiful not because the majority of society thinks so, but because she possesses objective attributes which are considered beautiful by human beings.

First, welcome.

Second, here's where the argument goes from this statement: by WHICH human beings? ALL human beings? Then can you prove that EVERY human being has the same standards for these seven stats?

Or by SOME human beings, which means these stats are considered SUBJECTIVELY?

For examply, you mention youth. We know there are people attracted to prepubescent girls only, and other attracted to the elderly. Whence the objective standard in youth? And how youthful? Teen? Early twenties? Early thirties?

These may be the objective criterion, but they are still evaluated subjectively.
 
she possesses objective attributes which are considered beautiful by human beings.

Nobody is denying that we use objective features in making our consideration of what is beautiful. BF however goes on to assert that the beauty is inherent in the objective characteristics themselves. We find certain objective characteristics beautiful because evolution has selected those individuals who find certain people beautiful (through increased fitness) and because of cultural norms that we learn are associated with the word beauty. None of it is because beauty is out there in the world, seperate from our view of the object in question.
 

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