Sinn Fein Wins Irish Election

[Giordano]

Yeah, bombings targeting civilians in London is justified because the RUC were a bunch of jerks.ANyway, I doubt a united Ireland is going to happen anytime soon. Too many people in the North don';t want to join the South.

A lot worse than a bunch of jerks. In fact, as I understand it, not all that easily distinguishable from the types of terrorists you, and I, despise.

I am not justifying bombings targeting civilians. Just noting again that to establish peace and a future both sides have to negotiate with elements guilty of dreadful things in the past.

 

[rockinkt]

Strawman. You cannot cope with my actual argument, so you invent one and claim I have made it.

Nonsense. You have no argument other than "They did it too!"

All of those involved in the violence, whether directly or by enabling, were in the wrong.

I have not claimed different.

The UK government has protected plenty of soldiers and police whose actions "crossed the line". Senior officers who ignored criminal acts were promoted and honoured. Politicians who quietly supported terrorist actions now sit in the Lords.

The difference is that the government is acknowledging the fact that their people "crossed the line" and are not only stating that such actions were wrong - but investigating and prosecuting when there is evidence to charge.
Again - the government and the police and military organisations are not marching in the streets and celebrating the vicious murderers and rapists and their terrorist acts.

Strawman. You cannot cope with my actual argument, so you invent one and claim I have made it.

Again - it is not a strawman to point out your actual argument is a basic "They did it too!"

All I have done is point out both sides were capable of being as bad as each other when it came to the use or enabling the use of violence and neither side has the moral high ground.

The IRA was beyond the pale when it came to the number of ruthless acts of violence on innocent people. Their terroristic acts far, far, outnumbered the number of equivalent acts carried out by the authorities. Any argument to the contrary is nonsense.
Besides - the OP and my points are about the subhuman terrorists and their horrid supporters that make up the Sinn Fein Party. If you want to discuss the villainous acts of others - like Rob Roy MacGregor - you may want to start another thread.

But now, on both sides, there are those who had nothing to do with the Troubles and who are working for a political, democratic, non violent future and they should be supported.

The very fact that they belong to and venerate the abhorrent Sinn Fein and all the vile things that they have perpetrated and currently still stand for is reason enough to not support them.
The obvious solution would be to start another political party that absolutely and completely calls out the atrocities that Sinn Fein committed and spits on their symbolism and bans their songs. You want to do good? Start by making no doubt of your abhorrence of terrorism and violence. Easy!

Clearly you do not forgive, forget or allow those who did wrong to make it right. Thankfully, others do, otherwise the Troubles would still be ongoing as they were.

Nothing has been made right. There is a lull in the terrorism and the threat of it still lingers and is very real. People in the various terrorist factions still hold murder in their hearts and minds or they would not venerate murdering terrorists and belong to their political entities.

 

[Vixen]

You realise that if the Unionists wanted to join Ireland they would have done if 60 years ago?

That's the Problem. The majority of Northern Ireland don't want to be a part of the Republic of Ireland, they want to remain a part of the UK. Most of them see themselves as either British (or its component countries) or as Northern Irish as opposed to being Irish. Their ties are to the UK, not Ireland.

They don't just oppose it they violently oppose it. People do not realise the strength of feeling in this.

 

[Vixen]

If it would have been "A Nation Once Again", "Rising Of the Moon" or even "Foggy Dew" it would not have been so bad, but the one chose is a particularly nasty one.

Don't forget Skibereen and Sean South.

Problem with these 'rebel songs' is they are very catchy with a fiddle and a tin flute backing up.

 

[Vixen]

Would you say that about the people who crashed planes into the World Trade Center towers?

The long history of Irish conflict merits its own thread.

 

[Vixen]

The bank robbery connection proves that they have only pulled back - not changed their ways. What do you think the money will be used for - paying money to all the families of the people they raped, tortured and murdered - or for a war chest?



Hilarious! Picture this: "Your Honor - my client stopped murdering people a while back. He deserves to be thanked for making the community a safer place for people because the murder rate has dropped now that he has stopped murdering people.




The horrid and twisted mindset of people that are willing to rejoice in the past terrorist activities of such an organization and want to become a part of it should make any person with an ounce of common decency want to vomit.




Having to hold one's nose when dealing with horrible people and horrid regimes is nothing new on the national and international stage.



True - but that does not make them free from the fact that they are a terrorist organization that venerates their horrible former members and acts of terrorism. They should never be allowed to forget that.

I understand what you are saying. However, it is not just a case of a bunch of murderous thugs setting off bombs and killing and maiming innocent victims.

Once you know the history it takes on a different complexion. People are willing to die for their country and they will employ any means to do so rather than being taken over by another country.

You see it as an act of wanton criminality, they see it as an act of war.

 

[Vixen]

Gerry Adams has never admitted he was involved in the Provos, and Martin McGuinness claimed he left in 1974. They gave up the violence they claimed they weren't involved in apparently.

I bought Gerry Adams' hardback biography at the time it came out but could never bring myself to read it, knowing what I know about him. He really gives one the creeps.

 

[Vixen]

^This^

People that purposely kill innocent men, women, and children for the sake of a political goal are sub-human scum terrorists.

All decent minded people agree with you.

However, imagine if your country was invaded and you became subjected to the laws of this new power. Can you honestly put your hand on your heart and say you wouldn't be moved to try to overthrow them and regain your country back?

 

[ahhell]

^This^

People that purposely kill innocent men, women, and children for the sake of a political goal are sub-human scum terrorists.

Including Chruchhill and FDR?

 

[Nessie]

Nonsense. You have no argument other than "They did it too!"



I have not claimed different.





The difference is that the government is acknowledging the fact that their people "crossed the line" and are not only stating that such actions were wrong - but investigating and prosecuting when there is evidence to charge.
Again - the government and the police and military organisations are not marching in the streets and celebrating the vicious murderers and rapists and their terrorist acts.



Again - it is not a strawman to point out your actual argument is a basic "They did it too!"



The IRA was beyond the pale when it came to the number of ruthless acts of violence on innocent people. Their terroristic acts far, far, outnumbered the number of equivalent acts carried out by the authorities. Any argument to the contrary is nonsense.
Besides - the OP and my points are about the subhuman terrorists and their horrid supporters that make up the Sinn Fein Party. If you want to discuss the villainous acts of others - like Rob Roy MacGregor - you may want to start another thread.




The very fact that they belong to and venerate the abhorrent Sinn Fein and all the vile things that they have perpetrated and currently still stand for is reason enough to not support them.
The obvious solution would be to start another political party that absolutely and completely calls out the atrocities that Sinn Fein committed and spits on their symbolism and bans their songs. You want to do good? Start by making no doubt of your abhorrence of terrorism and violence. Easy!




Nothing has been made right. There is a lull in the terrorism and the threat of it still lingers and is very real. People in the various terrorist factions still hold murder in their hearts and minds or they would not venerate murdering terrorists and belong to their political entities.

We agree the IRA were terrorists and their actions were despicable and unjustified.

You then refuse to acknowledge why they did what they did and how others actions influenced their actions. Just because I do and I acknowledge the role of the UK government and Unionists in NI, in helping to cause the violence does not mean I support it.

It is unreasonable, unrealistic and rather ignorant of you, to expect people to just cow down to being repressed and not fight back when subject to violence.

Scotland has had little to no violence when it comes to Nationalist campaigns for independence. That is because no group in Scotland has suffered like Catholics did in 1960s NI.

If Catholics in 1960s NI had equal access to jobs, housing, schooling and were well represented in the RUC and a say in local government, the Troubles would not have happened.

 

[theprestige]

Including Chruchhill and FDR?

The way I see it, there are three principles governing the morality of causing civilian deaths (collateral damage) in warfare.

Military distinction: It is incumbent on belligerents to distinguish their combatants from their noncombatants. This is accomplished with measures like uniforms, visible symbols, segregated facilities, etc. Soldiers that hide among civilians (e.g., terrorists) are committing a war crime. Militaries that base their operations among civilians likewise. Civilian deaths that arise from fighting such people are their fault, not the fault of the people fighting them.

That said, there are two other principles to consider.

Military necessity: There must be some concrete, achievable military goal, for the attack. You're capturing a bridge, establishing a beachhead, decapitating their high command, destroying their supply depots, etc. Something that diminishes their capacity to wage war.

Proportionality: The violence of the attack must be proportional to the military value if it succeeds. Getting rid of a squad of commandos holed up in an apartment block is a military goal. Nuking the entire city to do so is out of proportion to the military value of getting rid of those commandos. Bringing down the apartment block on their heads may not be, though.

There are nuances, and while the above principles are sound guidelines, they must be applied on a case by case basis.

Your question, "Including Chruchhill and FDR?" is too vague. We'd have to examine specific cases in context.

Some of the violence perpetrated by rebels in Northern Ireland was military. Some of it was terrorism.

 

[ponderingturtle]

A lot worse than a bunch of jerks. In fact, as I understand it, not all that easily distinguishable from the types of terrorists you, and I, despise.
.

See there is a moral difference, killing local minorities and running a terror campaign to keep them in their place is totally different than bombing civilians in far away cities. You can bomb the local minorities all you want and it is not at all the terrorism of the same kind. It is the bombing of distant majorities that is more morally repugnant.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Including Chruchhill and FDR?

Ah now it is the time for the half hearted equivocation about total war or some such changing morals and making the targeting of civilians to disrupt industry acceptable because of some vague reason.

Yet for some reason a minor power can never be involved in a total war for its existence with a major power, that is only something major powers can be in with each other for moral reasons.

 

[Giz]

Sure. But why can’t these youngsters start a nice left-wing party? Why does it have to be Sinn Fein?

Indeed

 

[dudalb]

We agree the IRA were terrorists and their actions were despicable and unjustified.

You then refuse to acknowledge why they did what they did and how others actions influenced their actions. Just because I do and I acknowledge the role of the UK government and Unionists in NI, in helping to cause the violence does not mean I support it.

It is unreasonable, unrealistic and rather ignorant of you, to expect people to just cow down to being repressed and not fight back when subject to violence.

Scotland has had little to no violence when it comes to Nationalist campaigns for independence. That is because no group in Scotland has suffered like Catholics did in 1960s NI.

If Catholics in 1960s NI had equal access to jobs, housing, schooling and were well represented in the RUC and a say in local government, the Troubles would not have happened.

A lot of truth in that, but you are still dodging the issue;A majority of the people in Ulster almost certainly do not want to be part of the Republic.
I don't like the whole Orange mentality very much, but I also don't want to coerce them into being part of the Republic if they don't want to.
A black and white, good guys mentality is what got Ireland into this mess to begin with.

 

[dudalb]

Maybe not:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/pol...nification-in-northern-ireland-poll-1.4015170

That is one poll, and a lsight majority would not be enough to make it work.It would have to be a large majority.

 

[dudalb]

AMused that the left is always accusing the right of seeing things in black and white and wanting simple solutions...which is true...but they are often guilty of the same things.
BTW if Sinn Finn is sincere about giving up violence, why don't they just disband The IRA or have a total break with the IRA?
It's life a Mafia family saying they are going 100 percent legit,but still keeping a small army of hitmen. you can't blame people for being skeptical.
I also wonder if the bretheren of the Left are just as forgiving and understanding of the Orange Paramilities.

 

[Darat]

AMused that the left is always accusing the right of seeing things in black and white and wanting simple solutions...which is true...but they are often guilty of the same things.
BTW if Sinn Finn is sincere about giving up violence, why don't they just disband The IRA or have a total break with the IRA?
It's life a Mafia family saying they are going 100 percent legit,but still keeping a small army of hitmen. you can't blame people for being skeptical.
I also wonder if the bretheren of the Left are just as forgiving and understanding of the Orange Paramilities.

They have done.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Yes, but...

There's a new left/right divide in Irish politics but it's very fragmented and based on reaction to domestic issues. The 'old left' of Labour (and I'll include the SDs there) isn't doing well and the vote share is going to the Greens and Sinn Féin who, frankly, aren't fit to govern. Plus lots of independents and fringe idiots (remember Wallace ).

Plus let's look at the numbers:
38 Fianna Fáil
37 Sinn Féin (plus Tóibín)
35 Fine Gael
12 SD/Labour
12 Greens
6 Solidarity/PBP/I4C
18 Independents

Try and get a stable block of eighty out of that....

An xmas election I suspect.


Also I'd like to know the five thousand who voted for Barrett, Reynolds and their fellow fascists.

Don't know the parties well enough to know if it would work, but a look over their Wiki entries suggests that the best result would be a Semi-Conservative Fianna Fáil/Fine Gael/SDLP coalition. I am guessing though that this would mean putting some egos in check to manage it.

 

[Tolls]

The Fianna Fáil/Fine Gael split was explained to me elsewhere.
They are essentially the same party, policy-wise, but split based on who their grandfathers aligned with a century ago.
If they went into coalition it would beg the question of why they stay separrate. Consequently a coalition between them is unlikely.