Sinn Fein Wins Irish Election

[Giordano]

I have to bring up that over hundreds of years the English (and often their proxies the Scots) have done awful things in Ireland. Intentional starvation, stripping of property, denial of education, outright violence, etc. Do I need to document this?

Do the English of today deserve to be dismissed as violent and untrustworthy because of this moral burden of the past in the same way many English view the IRA in its various manifestations? Why not? Many Irish feel this way. Perhaps both sides need to recognize this and find a way to work in practice around their emotions, even their justified emotions, to make their world and that of their children a better place.

 

[theprestige]

One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

Here's the way I see it:

Rebelling against the government is not terrorism. Using force to resist government intrusion, and fighting for independence from the government, is not terrorism. A person who does this is probably going to be labeled a terrorist by the government they're opposing, but that is a propaganda definition. It serves the government's purposes, not the purpose of clear communication.

Terrorism is when you want to oppose the government, but you don't want to rebel openly. You don't have a military goal that reasonably justifies the killing you embark on. You make no distinction between military targets and civilian targets. Or if you do, you target civilians because they're softer and easier that soldiers. Your objectives are not military success and thence the freedom you're fighting for. Rather, your objectives are political messaging through violence and death. "Freedom" isn't even a part of it. That's terrorism.

One man's terrorist is not another man's freedom fighter. It may suit the government to portray rebels as terrorists. It does not suit us to do the same.

 

[Brainster]

It really does appear as though they legitimately gave up violence in 1998.

Gerry Adams has never admitted he was involved in the Provos, and Martin McGuinness claimed he left in 1974. They gave up the violence they claimed they weren't involved in apparently.

 

[Giordano]

Gerry Adams has never admitted he was involved in the Provos, and Martin McGuinness claimed he left in 1974. They gave up the violence they claimed they weren't involved in apparently.

Yet they (and their colleagues) did give up most of the violence.

 

[rockinkt]

Exactly. If there is to be no one who has a past that involved the supporting of terrorism, either actively planting bombs or enabling those who did, then many from both sides should not be in politics.

Sinn Fein supporters and politicians do not see themselves as the ones in the wrong. They can point to plenty of violence by the UK army and RUC during the Troubles.

Because two wrongs always makes a right.

I can't believe that someone is arguing the childish "They did it too!" as a justification for terrorism against innocent men, women, and children.

 

[rockinkt]

Here's the way I see it:

Rebelling against the government is not terrorism. Using force to resist government intrusion, and fighting for independence from the government, is not terrorism. A person who does this is probably going to be labeled a terrorist by the government they're opposing, but that is a propaganda definition. It serves the government's purposes, not the purpose of clear communication.

Terrorism is when you want to oppose the government, but you don't want to rebel openly. You don't have a military goal that reasonably justifies the killing you embark on. You make no distinction between military targets and civilian targets. Or if you do, you target civilians because they're softer and easier that soldiers. Your objectives are not military success and thence the freedom you're fighting for. Rather, your objectives are political messaging through violence and death. "Freedom" isn't even a part of it. That's terrorism.

One man's terrorist is not another man's freedom fighter. It may suit the government to portray rebels as terrorists. It does not suit us to do the same.

^This^

People that purposely kill innocent men, women, and children for the sake of a political goal are sub-human scum terrorists.

 

[angrysoba]

IMO the "Irish Question" has generated among the most long lasting hatreds/never forget emotions of any political conflict. Events of hundreds of years ago are still periodically paraded out (sometimes literally) to revisit and to re-enliven these hatreds. At one level I understand. I've already indicated in another thread how I could never forgive if a loved one of mine was killed as "collateral damage" in a military strike. Worse still in a terrorist action.

But I still maintain that things change in ways that are important to recognize, if only for practical reasons. Terrorists die and are replaced with people who have not performed violent acts. Choosing to identify with and join Sinn Fenn may not laudable, but in effect these new recruits are changing Sinn Fenn from within, replacing violent thugs with people seeking achieving goals though politic action. Trust them or not, but one can still recognize the changes that have occurred. Fail to do so and one dooms both sides to an dystopian future that just extends the evils of the past hundreds of years.

Sure. But why can’t these youngsters start a nice left-wing party? Why does it have to be Sinn Fein?

 

[angrysoba]

Do you have the same attitude toward Fine Gael and Fianna Fail? They both had their origins in the IRA which even in 1922 was a terrorist organization, especially Fianna fail, they lost the Civil War but quickly took political power for something like 70 years.

It really does appear as though they legitimately gave up violence in 1998. How long do you need to believe they have changed.

Let’s see. To give an example, if someone like Eoin O’Duffy was still a member of Fine Gael, then they would be beyond the pale (pun not intended). And if he is still reverted by the current Fine Gael, then **** them too! Someone whose organization fought for the fascists in the Spanish Civil War, and was himself an anti-Semite and fascist is someone that any reputable organization has to explicitly condemn and distance themselves from.

 

[angrysoba]

I have to bring up that over hundreds of years the English (and often their proxies the Scots) have done awful things in Ireland. Intentional starvation, stripping of property, denial of education, outright violence, etc. Do I need to document this?

Do the English of today deserve to be dismissed as violent and untrustworthy because of this moral burden of the past in the same way many English view the IRA in its various manifestations? Why not? Many Irish feel this way. Perhaps both sides need to recognize this and find a way to work in practice around their emotions, even their justified emotions, to make their world and that of their children a better place.

Nobody doubts this but there is clearly a difference between “English” which is a nationality, and an actual political organization that serves as front for violent terrorists.

 

[Nessie]

Because two wrongs always makes a right.

I can't believe that someone is arguing the childish "They did it too!" as a justification for terrorism against innocent men, women, and children.

That is not what I have argued.

My actual argument is that there was wrong and violence on both sides. Should we condemn the British politicians who, whilst others carried out acts of violence such as soldiers, the police and Unionist terrorists (with allegations of collusion and enablement), tried to and got a peace? The obvious answer is no. Those who sought peace should be praised. The same should apply to Nationalist side.

No throwing stones in glass houses and pot/kettle/black come to mind when I hear people trying to condemn the other side as they completely ignore what another side has also done.

That Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley made peace and worked together, is a superb example of how those who had been literally at each others throats and who had been involved in violent conflict, should be enabled to move on.

What they did atoned for their role in the Troubles and to try and destabilise that success is wrong. Sinn Fein is now a legitimate, elected, democratic party full of people who had absolutely nothing to do with the Troubles.

 

[Nessie]

^This^

People that purposely kill innocent men, women, and children for the sake of a political goal are sub-human scum terrorists.

I think that the difference between you and me is that I acknowledge there were members of the UK armed forces, UK political parties and police in NI who also bloodied their hands in the Troubles.

By the late 1960s, sectarian repression of the Catholic minority by the Protestant majority, in jobs, housing, schooling and many other areas of life, had marginalised the Catholics. Attacks on Catholics had become so bad, the UK had to send in the Army to allegedly help the RUC, but since the RUC had been part of the sectarian repression, that just made the situation for the Catholic population even worse.

Then you criticise them for fighting back! I think that when a minority is persecuted, it is hard to condemn them for fighting back.

 

[rockinkt]

That is not what I have argued.

Yes it is because you actually still stick with that horrendous argument later on in your post.

No throwing stones in glass houses and pot/kettle/black come to mind when I hear people trying to condemn the other side as they completely ignore what another side has also done.

So once we are back to "They did it too!"

That Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley made peace and worked together, is a superb example of how those who had been literally at each others throats and who had been involved in violent conflict, should be enabled to move on.

What they did atoned for their role in the Troubles and to try and destabilise that success is wrong. Sinn Fein is now a legitimate, elected, democratic party full of people who had absolutely nothing to do with the Troubles.

What those two subhumans did can never be atoned for. They were responsible for deaths of innocents because of their horrid and twisted beliefs.
They should have both rotted in prison for their actions. They did nothing but put a pause to the hatred they caused and propagated and gained wealth and prestige from. That is exactly like two aged drug dealers making peace and receiving applause and gratitude for their stopping being subhuman criminals who caused death and suffering while they retire to luxury all the while laughing at the people they victimized.

I think that the difference between you and me is that I acknowledge there were members of the UK armed forces, UK political parties and police in NI who also bloodied their hands in the Troubles.

The difference between you and me is that I stopped the childish idea that two wrongs make a right a long time ago.
Furthermore, I do condemn any individuals who used excessive force while trying to enforce the laws of the land. I will not condemn entire governments or government organizations like police forces or military because a few rotten people crossed a very important line. I am absolutely certain that the government organizations whose members crossed the line do not revere and publicly celebrate the criminal actions of their villainous members and leaders like the terrorist Sinn Féin members do of their subhuman scum.

Then you criticise them for fighting back! I think that when a minority is persecuted, it is hard to condemn them for fighting back.

Oh look! Once again we are back to "They did it first!"

Sooo...the people that were killed in terrorist attacks were all personally responsible for the trouble the Catholics were having?

People who mix their politics with their most firmly held and fundamental hatreds and prejudices wind up being terrorists - or apologists for terrorists. In doing so - they lose their humanity. It is as simple as that.

 

[Nessie]

Yes it is because you actually still stick with that horrendous argument later on in your post.



So once we are back to "They did it too!"



What those two subhumans did can never be atoned for. They were responsible for deaths of innocents because of their horrid and twisted beliefs.
They should have both rotted in prison for their actions. They did nothing but put a pause to the hatred they caused and propagated and gained wealth and prestige from. That is exactly like two aged drug dealers making peace and receiving applause and gratitude for their stopping being subhuman criminals who caused death and suffering while they retire to luxury all the while laughing at the people they victimized.

The difference between you and me is that I stopped the childish idea that two wrongs make a right a long time ago.

Strawman. You cannot cope with my actual argument, so you invent one and claim I have made it.

All of those involved in the violence, whether directly or by enabling, were in the wrong.

Furthermore, I do condemn any individuals who used excessive force while trying to enforce the laws of the land. I will not condemn entire governments or government organizations like police forces or military because a few rotten people crossed a very important line. I am absolutely certain that the government organizations whose members crossed the line do not revere and publicly celebrate the criminal actions of their villainous members and leaders like the terrorist Sinn Féin members do of their subhuman scum.

The UK government has protected plenty of soldiers and police whose actions "crossed the line". Senior officers who ignored criminal acts were promoted and honoured. Politicians who quietly supported terrorist actions now sit in the Lords.

Oh look! Once again we are back to "They did it first!"

Sooo...the people that were killed in terrorist attacks were all personally responsible for the trouble the Catholics were having?

Strawman. You cannot cope with my actual argument, so you invent one and claim I have made it.

All I have done is point out both sides were capable of being as bad as each other when it came to the use or enabling the use of violence and neither side has the moral high ground.

But now, on both sides, there are those who had nothing to do with the Troubles and who are working for a political, democratic, non violent future and they should be supported.

People who mix their politics with their most firmly held and fundamental hatreds and prejudices wind up being terrorists - or apologists for terrorists. In doing so - they lose their humanity. It is as simple as that.

Clearly you do not forgive, forget or allow those who did wrong to make it right. Thankfully, others do, otherwise the Troubles would still be ongoing as they were.

 

[Arcade22]

In the meantime, do the majority of people in Ireland want the six counties and the baggage that goes with it? Sound like a major law enforcement headache.

Don't forget the crappy economy: UK subsidies to North Ireland are equivalent to 1/3 of their GDP, or about 10 billion GBP.

 

[catsmate]

Sure. But why can’t these youngsters start a nice left-wing party? Why does it have to be Sinn Fein?

Labour is burdened by Howlin, the Greens are seen as ineffectual and the SDs have yet to prove themselves.

 

[dudalb]

I think that the difference between you and me is that I acknowledge there were members of the UK armed forces, UK political parties and police in NI who also bloodied their hands in the Troubles.

By the late 1960s, sectarian repression of the Catholic minority by the Protestant majority, in jobs, housing, schooling and many other areas of life, had marginalised the Catholics. Attacks on Catholics had become so bad, the UK had to send in the Army to allegedly help the RUC, but since the RUC had been part of the sectarian repression, that just made the situation for the Catholic population even worse.

Then you criticise them for fighting back! I think that when a minority is persecuted, it is hard to condemn them for fighting back.

Yeah, bombings targeting civilians in London is justified because the RUC were a bunch of jerks.
ANyway, I doubt a united Ireland is going to happen anytime soon. Too many people in the North don';t want to join the South.

 

[angrysoba]

Y
ANyway, I doubt a united Ireland is going to happen anytime soon. Too many people in the North don';t want to join the South.

And too many in the South don't want the north.

 

[dudalb]

Do you have the same attitude toward Fine Gael and Fianna Fail? They both had their origins in the IRA which even in 1922 was a terrorist organization, especially Fianna fail, they lost the Civil War but quickly took political power for something like 70 years.

It really does appear as though they legitimately gave up violence in 1998. How long do you need to believe they have changed.


Don't forget the civil war.

Even if true, the problem is Sinn Fine still has a 'We want the North to join the South, even if a majority of people in the North don't want to" attitude which is not going to be constructive.
That has always been the crux of the problem. The Majority of the North..whether for good or bad reasons really does not matter...does not want to become part of the Republic. I don't see that changing anytime soon.
And a lot of people in the South don't want the mess a problems of trying to forcing the North to Join.

 

[dudalb]

And too many in the South don't want the north.

Like I said, yeah, they sing rebel songs, and yell about a 32 County Republic and Four Green Fields but they really don't want to deal with the mess that would happen if the North was forced to join the South by some political deal with the UK.

 

[Giordano]

Even if true, the problem is Sinn Fine still has a 'We want the North to join the South, even if a majority of people in the North don't want to" attitude which is not going to be constructive.
That has always been the crux of the problem. The Majority of the North..whether for good or bad reasons really does not matter...does not want to become part of the Republic. I don't see that changing anytime soon.And a lot of people in the South don't want the mess a problems of trying to forcing the North to Join.

Maybe not:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/pol...nification-in-northern-ireland-poll-1.4015170