Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

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kitakaze wrote:

So, the short answer is....Bigfoot sighting reports can not be "reliable"...in your opinion.

That's all...for now....
Ho ho, what a shock. Try answering some of the many questions and points made to you by myself and others that you've been conspicuously avoiding. I've served you, I have fatter fish to fry right now...

ETA: Again you obfuscate and try and twist what is said to you. Drop the BS, Sweaty. If bigfoot was a verified animal then sighting reports could be used in data trying to make conclusions about said animal, just like bears. In which case, confirmed sightings would be considered essential to making any conclusions.
 
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The scientific mind doesn't look at the evidence and "weigh" it according to what someone else is going to say about it afterwards.
Only "intellectual cowards" do that.


I wasn't recommending any particular course of action on the part of skeptics. I was pointing out the tendencies of believers to throw out a large quantity of "evidence" (reports of nests, of sightings in Iowa or New York or New Jersey -- I think the BFRO even records a sighting in Rhode Island --, of bigfoot being shot, of inconclusive hair and fecal samples, of blurry photos, etc.) and implying that 50 million bigfoot fans can't be wrong.


A good example is the Great Pumpkin.
Nobody actually goes out looking for the Great Pumpkin at Halloween....because there is NO evidence for it's existence.
Without any evidence....there'll never be any proof of it's existence.

Unless it's a nine foot tall, 2000 lb, bipedal pumpkin.


Evidence does NOT need to be "correct"...."proven"..."verified" or "known" to have been created by whatever it's purported to be evidence of....in order for it to carry "weight", and thereby indicating a certain "degree of probability".


So what is the probability that a particular sighting is a sighting of Bigfoot? 10%, 20%. How did you calculate that probability?
 
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Oh Greg dear, when did I do that?

It went like this ..



Does anyone outside of footery claim that kushtaka is sasquatch?

Yes, the tribe themselves. Want to call them liars too? You are completely out of line. Kushtaka is a well-known and supported term for bigfoot. I don't know what you have read, but I would suggest that you obtain an accurate enthnography of the Tlingit (and in case you want to call me names too, I am a professional anthropologist and pretty much know, when it comes to tribal lore, what I'm talking about).

Later you said:

Oh, ok...so I guess I keep the references and stories to myself then. I'll be sure to let my Tlingit friends know that their own heritage is a lie.


I then proceeded to document an article by someone claiming to be a Tlingit, in which that person explained their understanding of Kushtaka..

Here is another story from a person who claims to be a Tlingit ..

http://www.geocities.com/area51/vault/6990/namer.html

Quote:
" They are mythical creatures that have the appearance of a land otter, but are usually around the size of a man. Like changelings...... "

I guess she must be a liar ...
…………………………………..

So, after calling me ‘ ignorant ‘ for sourcing Wiki, I came up with someone claiming to be a Tlingit, who didn’t seem to know that a Kushtaka is a Bigfoot..

I asked you if you thought the source was a liar, and you never responded.



Basically you were caught making stuff up, while appealing to your education and experience with NA culture ( and heritage ); implying it added credibility to your Bigfoot beliefs.


Did I miss where you finally admitted that Kushtaka doesn’t really fall in line with current mainstream Bigfoot lore ?
 
The only person making stuff is you. You said I inferred that a NA was a liar, and you have no evidence that I did so.

I'm coming in on this thread late, but Diogenes shows above that you say that Kushtaka is a well-supported (by Tlingit peoples) term for Bigfoot. He then quotes a Tlingit individual saying that Kushtaka look like land otters (which would not look like a Bigfoot).

So either you are calling that individual a liar or merely misinformed? Or maybe there are multiple Kushtaka legends? Which is it then?
 
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This is the CLASSIC skeptic's mantra...."without PROOF....there is no EVIDENCE"...

Another CLASSIC from a skeptic.
Skeptics always refer to "evidence" in terms of "proof".

Sweaty, you ignorant slut*. Your grammatical confusion and illogical syntax isn't humorous, it's the equivalent of a childish temper-tantrum. Instead of actually debating anything, you seem content to stamp your feet, jump up and down, and demand answers to illogically phrased questions.

Do you have any reliable evidence for bigfoot or not?

RayG

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weekend_Update#The_Jane_Curtin_Era_.281976-1980.29
 
Debating with some strong Bigfoot believers can often be a very strange experience. It is as if they are abnormal people.
 
The only person making stuff is you. You said I inferred that a NA was a liar, and you have no evidence that I did so.

What VulcanWay said...


I'm coming in on this thread late, but Diogenes shows above that you say that Kushtaka is a well-supported (by Tlingit peoples) term for Bigfoot. He then quotes a Tlingit individual saying that Kushtaka look like land otters (which would not look like a Bigfoot).

So either you are calling that individual a liar or merely misinformed? Or maybe there are multiple Kushtaka legends? Which is it then?


Did I miss where you backed down from your claim that the Tlingit view the Kushtaka as a non-human North American primate , or is that still what you are asserting ?
 
As I said earlier, there are no references that state that the Tlingit call Kushtake "bigfoot" or use the term "non-human North American primate," because those are moderns terms. There are multiple stories of Kushtaka because he is a changeling and takes different forms. The stories of him when he's in hairy bipedal form, kidnapping kids with a basket on his back, whistles, has horrific screams, and smells bad are included in my collection of traditional NA stories of bigfoot-like creatures.
 
As I said earlier, there are no references that state that the Tlingit call Kushtake "bigfoot" or use the term "non-human North American primate," because those are moderns terms.

But you seem to be asserting that Kushtake = Bigfoot? If not, why bring this up here? You seem to be dodging the question as to the relation of one to the other.

There are multiple stories of Kushtaka because he is a changeling and takes different forms. The stories of him when he's in hairy bipedal form, kidnapping kids with a basket on his back, whistles, has horrific screams, and smells bad are included in my collection of traditional NA stories of bigfoot-like creatures.

So if Kushtaka is responsible for the modern creature that we call Bigfoot, would it not be reasonable that there would be sightings of the Kushtaka in its other forms? The human-sized land otter has not been sighted by any of the Bigfoot folks. And if it has kidnapped children or wanders with a basket this, too, has not been reported.

I suppose what I'm looking for, without trying to be facetious, is can you define for us what the modern "Bigfoot" is and is not? Is it related to the Kushtaka or not?
 
Also...

Kushtaka is a well-known and supported term for bigfoot.

As I said earlier, there are no references that state that the Tlingit call Kushtake "bigfoot" or use the term "non-human North American primate," because those are moderns terms.

If Kushtaka is a well-known and supported (by the Tlingit?) term for Bigfoot, then the Tlingit do call Kushtake "Bigfoot." Or is it another group that supports the connection of the term Bigfoot for Kushtaka while the Tlingit deny this?

Again, looking for clarification.
 
But you seem to be asserting that Kushtake = Bigfoot? If not, why bring this up here? You seem to be dodging the question as to the relation of one to the other.

So if Kushtaka is responsible for the modern creature that we call Bigfoot, would it not be reasonable that there would be sightings of the Kushtaka in its other forms? The human-sized land otter has not been sighted by any of the Bigfoot folks. And if it has kidnapped children or wanders with a basket this, too, has not been reported.

I suppose what I'm looking for, without trying to be facetious, is can you define for us what the modern "Bigfoot" is and is not? Is it related to the Kushtaka or not?

For the record, I do not think that NA stories constituents proof that bigfoot exists.

Although there are a good many stories from all over the U.S. from tribes that attribute cannibalism, basket-wearing, and child stealing to large hairy bipeds matching the modern description of bigfoot, I do not believe bigfoots really wear baskets on their back and hopefully really don't kidnap kids and eat them (nor am I aware of any sightings that claim such). A bigfoot to me, and I believe most, is simply a large (giant), hairy, bipedal animal...and in NA stories, that where the character starts, and then different cultural-specific elements are added to him to make the story. So yes, Kushtaka is related to that (and there are other examples where tribes have shape-shifting bigfoot's...we call them trickster characters).
 
For the record, I do not think that NA stories constituents proof that bigfoot exists.

That is a fair statement.

Although there are a good many stories from all over the U.S. from tribes that attribute cannibalism, basket-wearing, and child stealing to large hairy bipeds matching the modern description of bigfoot, I do not believe bigfoots really wear baskets on their back and hopefully really don't kidnap kids and eat them (nor am I aware of any sightings that claim such). A bigfoot to me, and I believe most, is simply a large (giant), hairy, bipedal animal...and in NA stories, that where the character starts, and then different cultural-specific elements are added to him to make the story. So yes, Kushtaka is related to that (and there are other examples where tribes have shape-shifting bigfoot's...we call them trickster characters).

Now this is progress! So the animal that we would call Bigfoot has been seen by other cultures (to include the Tlingit) and, as has been done to both real and legendary (non-existant) creatures, these cultures have taken this and put their own personal spin on it to make it their own, so to speak. Hence the Kushtaka legend and others, which owe their origins to what we call Bigfoot.

Would that be a fair summation of what you're getting at?
 
I'm more than willing to carry the matter through to resolution but I think you know very well that it isn't going to look good for you, Hairy Man. Anywho...
Ah, somehow…someway, I knew you were still posting about me!
Just keep telling yourself and others that I'm obsessed with you and creepy instead of admitting that you were caught being blatantly dishonest by someone who was dogged about proving the point if that makes you feel better but I assure you that doesn't make it true.
First, I didn’t say everyone on this board was hateful. I happen to like desertyeti very much. Correa and LTC have been nothing but respectful.
Fair enough, let's just call that LAL's typical slant on the facts. For the record, I was also nothing but respectful until I realized you made a rather simple blunder seeing the word 'kooshdakhaa' and not recognizing it as a phonetic spelling went on to fabricate and carry on a story of them being separate characters with separate stories to account for the blunder. Even after realizing you had been dishonest I tried to stress the fact that in every reference I was aware of you were considered a kind and generous person. Nevertheless, you tried to pull the wool and you were caught. It's too bad you won't admit it.

Go ahead, Kathy, and now try and pretend I'm your stalker but you must think us all daft if you expect us to buy this BS about you being simply 'wrong' as opposed to obviously being busted being dishonest and making stuff up and acting like it was based on your professional knowledge. However, surely you must realize just how easy it is given how few posts you have for anyone other than me to go and look and decide for themselves.
What I said specifically is the reason I wasn’t posting is because you are creeping me out. I haven’t posted since Feb. 23rd, and yet you have posted something about me everyday since then. I find that very disturbing.
Nice try, I'll get to that in a moment. For now, I'll just say that I try to be dogged, meticulous, and diligent in dealing with inconsistency. Especially with footer stars who shape opinion.
Secondly, why are you still having such heartburn about the whole kushtaka/kooshdakhaa issue? Let’s lay this out on the table…I stated that they were two separate names; you said they were the same; I said you were wrong, look it up in a language dictionary; you then posted a good 15 times about it; I posted I was wrong and I apologized. How exactly did I dig myself a hole in three posts? Why are you blowing this so out of proportion? Did I state, “I declare on my reputation that I am all knowing and you should bow down to me?” Nope…I made a statement, I was wrong, I apologized. I suspect I could go through your posts and find a similar wrong statements that you apologized for (as we could for everyone, as you know, perfect people are more elusive than bigfoot).
First, a question. Why did you not introduce yourself as Kathy Strain, head of the AIBR and major figure in bigfootery in your first post? If you'd like to say it was because you thought skeptics would have treated you differently, I'd understand. I butted heads with plenty of skeptics when I first came here. How many times do you think you've said something to the effect of 'I'm an anthropologist so I know what I'm talking about'? Nevertheless, let's go ahead and lay it out. Let's start with a series of posts showing you to be flat out wrong.

#1966- You're completely out of line.
#1976- The stories or the references.
#2012- Very well studied on NA lore.
#2020- Maybe crow?
#2095- No apology?

And now let's see where you were wrong and dishonest.

#2049- Woops. The blunder.
#2073- Think fast. The BS.
#2206- Nope, you're still wrong.
#2294- Maybe I'll prove it. Huntster?
#2298- I said different stories.
#2315- Thanks, Correa! Good point.
#2568- Wrong, apologized. Dishonest?
However, I’d like to remind you that you stated in post #2574 that “I will not pursue the matter further beyond this post nor seek to exploit your admission” and yet you have done exactly that at least three times (including above). I was not dishonest in my statements…I was wrong. You however, sir, are the one who is being dishonest...you aren’t keeping your word. And frankly, if you can’t tell the difference between being wrong and being dishonest, I don’t know what to say.
I have made reference to Hairy Man directly or indirectly a total of nine times (not including this post) since replying to her admission in post #2574. They are as follows (for this no links as they are recent enough to easily check):

#2611- an indirect reference to her dishonesty.
#2671- an invitation to return.
#2688- response to Sweaty apparently submitting her husband's BF claim as evidence.
#2706- response to carcharodon's mention of my response to Sweaty.
#2714- response to Sweaty seeking verification. No reply to date.
#2741- response to LAL's mention of her. No specifics.
#2748- response to LAL. No specifics.
#2763- response to LAL on the subject of BF nests including reference to Kathy Strain's claim of nest find.
#2764- response to LAL including detailed specifics of events concerning Hairy Man.

Do you think that I have sought to pursue the matter with you or exploit you're admission? Remember, you still claim to not having been busted being dishonest when I have done much to show otherwise. You are more than welcome to make the case that you weren't dishonest on the matter of kooshdakhaa/kushtaka and I would be very interested to see how you would seek to show that.
I am very confident in my own honesty, credibility, integrity, and professionalism. If you feel somehow that I am a detriment to my profession, you are more than welcome to contact my National Forest, the Pacific Southwest Regional Archaeologist, and the local tribes I work with. If you feel I'm a detriment to bigfooting, please feel free to take your charges to the BFF or the AIBR Board (who have the power to reprimand me). Otherwise, I would suggest you move on and stop humping my leg.
I can assure you I have no interest in either of your legs. I have also elsewhere stated that I don't think you are dishonest in your nature but simply got caught in an easy blunder and the tried to cover for it. From the beginning of your participation here you have repeatedly claimed your authority on matters we discuss, spoke down to others, and then been caught with your pants down.

In my response to your admission in post #2574 I detailed why I think it's important that we shed light on this. You have been shown to misrepresent, mishandle, and distort facts including outright fabrication. You are a key figure of bigfootery and your claims influence the opinions of many believers. I for one will bear in mind your actions here when I read of you speaking about nests, prints, or call blasting results and I think others will, too. As for your day job, I hardly care except where you use it as brow-beating material. I do remember the specific reason why you got into anthropology, though. To bad there's no reliable evidence for them.
 
Are you saying you believe Bigfoot is a changeling, a' la Beckjord ?

100%, absolutely not. If bigfoot is a real creature, he has NO supernatural abilities, can't shapeshift, wormhole travel, disappear, etc....he's just an animal like all other animals.
 
That is a fair statement.

Now this is progress! So the animal that we would call Bigfoot has been seen by other cultures (to include the Tlingit) and, as has been done to both real and legendary (non-existant) creatures, these cultures have taken this and put their own personal spin on it to make it their own, so to speak. Hence the Kushtaka legend and others, which owe their origins to what we call Bigfoot.

Would that be a fair summation of what you're getting at?

True, if bigfoot is not a real creature, the legends started with Native Americans originally (or likewise other native cultures in other places).
 
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