Should Homeopathy be illegal?

[RichardR]

yes I did answer with a question one that nobody seems to answer.

The point is water or not are you prepared to dictate hypothetically what people can take medicinally?

OK, I'll answer that. No, I would not dictate what someone else does.

 

[RichardR]

RichardR like cures like principle try this.

Feed the fever and starve the cold, familiar sentance, meaning if you keep warm despite a burning fever you sweat out the cold, that works doesnt it?

And from this you believe that anything that gives you the same symptoms of any illness you have will cure it?

 

[RichardR]

RichardR is soooo gonna kick your behind if you don't come up with some kind of cite for that statistic



Sou

Me?

 

[Andalyn]

yes I did answer with a question one that nobody seems to answer.

Okay, I'll try.

The point is water or not are you prepared to dictate hypothetically what people can take medicinally?

I believe that there should be certain regulations when selling material that the sick and desperate are told will do things for them. I am not dictating anything. I think there should be regulations. I don't think it's a far stretch to suggest we have rules that say "what I sell you should actually do what I say it does."

I dont dispute the labelling already agreed that part yonks back.

Fine.

Back again to my question above and now added to what gives you the right to dictate what can be taken hypothetically, if people want to take it why cant they. People can look things up for themselves I did. Clearer labeling yes helps.

Governments generally do have the right to make laws and regulations designed to protect it's citizens. Ever hear of speed limits? Fraud is fraud. Water is water.

I can see your point whichi already agreed on, now look at it from where I sit and see how it feels to be told what you can have and that all comes back to modern medicines a monoply dont you think?

"Monopoly medicines" aside, if I had some dirt which I told you cured your problem, and offerred to sell it to you for an amount - I'd hope you'd want some evidence or proof before you bought it and ate it.

I don't really see where you are going with the monopoly thing though. There are many labs which make generic versions of just about every drug on the market. They are chemically identical and are just as effective as the "name brand". Let me see if I can remember this correctly: Hydrocodone is "LorTab™"

I understand fully do you? I didnt say it was magical, thats untrue nor did I sing its prasies as awonder drug, I sadi from apoint of experience it helps how why or what I cant say but it does, if its water then perhaps it works by giving the body a break from od on chemicals I dont know I am not a pharmacist, the point is it helps some people maybe the power of belief is strong so why teminate that persons ownbelief and throw it away like its meaningless?

My question is this: Do you think businesses should be able to prey on the sick and desperate by selling them a substance which does nothing it is advertised to do? You have a water faucet at home, do you not? Why purchase lie-water? You see, the first thing you have to do is
#1 - Understand it is water.
#2 - Then drink it from the tap.
#3 - Understanding it is water, perhaps your placebo will remain.

By the sounds of that andalyn you agree to dictate what people can take to help them, so what is available to those left behind by modern medcines? Or should people in that desperate position just be left to suffer?

What I am saying RS, is that it should be illegal for someone to sell a substance that claims it does something, when in fact it does not. That is fraud. If I sold you a homeopathic computer, and it didn't work, you'd want your money back. If I refused - you'd very likely sue me. Fraud is fraud. Homeopathy is a fraud.

If it helped you, it's only because you believed in it. Understanding that is the first step!

I am not heartless or cruel to prey on those in need, I amnot like that I care thats my problem I see it from that point of view, but the way I read you, it sounds no different to those who do you want to get rid of somebodies only hope just like that. Doesnt htat sound cruel?

If some cult leader approached you and told you that he could cure you of your illness and enlighten you, and all it would cost you is your life savings and entire bank account, would it be okay if I tried to stop you? Even if this cult is your "only hope".

I still have what I have I am incurable, it helped me get through a bad time briefly when I needed it, it didnt cure me it helped when all that was left was suicide, and I do that again anytime rather than selfkill.

I am very happy you didn't kill yourself. Just know that it was your belief in the water that saved you - not the water itself. Once you realize that, you are on the path to enlightenment.

Cant you see what you could do hypothetically by trashing or destroying everything and banning it all because it is not scientifically correct?

If you are saying that people will kill themselves if homeopathy were made illegal - well, that is sad. I'm sure some probably would. Many people would probably kill themselves if there was a sudden realization that god didn't exist also. People kill themselves for many reasons, many of which are not fathomable to those who are not suicidal. When you feel like offing yourself, talk to someone. Heck, talk to me.

Unlike what you think of me as thick I am not so thick, I look up things first, even whenI was so despeparte I checked re checked everything. I gave it ago it helped, that was it. It gave the boost Ineeded to carry on and find the will to live, can you still deny that right to somebody else?

But you didn't understand it was just water. You didn't understand the dilution factors.

I don't deny you the right to believe in something. I wish to deny the ability of a business to market a product which preys on the sick and desperate people who will believe anything. AGAIN - If I sold you something which I said did something, you would expect it to do as advertised. WHY IS HOMEOPATHY DIFFERENT IN YOUR MIND???

I guess you believe Fraud laws should be suspended when it comes to your particular belief. What it everyone thought this way?

I agree it has to be looked into and labelled correctly i am not disputing that, The placebo effect needs more investigating into. Trashing things because they failed some tests (staged)should be banned along with closed minds. skeptism is one thing but you cant say science at the moment isnt unfallable(?),Tommorrow somethng could happen and it all changes.

Not trashing anything. It is fraud. Magnets in shoes are fraud. Homeopathy is fraud.

I dont think this can be resolved, we just go round again, I stick to my beliefs on the caring side of humanity and you stick to you beliefs on ripoffs.

I could say that I care more about humanity, because I wish to protect the weak, sick, desperate and gullible from the vultures of fringe "medicine".

Again, you should ask yourself this: Does believing in something ultimately make it okay, no matter what?

 

[Doctor X]

Radiating Sunflower:

One may do whatever one wishes until it impacts upons someone else. You can believe that water cures a certain ill, you can believe that "unipolar" magnets exist to "realign" your "meridians," you can even believe that Alanis Morrisette can sing.

However, to expect others to share in them you have to provide evidence.

That you believed the Oil of Serpant cured you of your ill does not really measure up against medications that do. Others cannot apply your belief to themselves.

Why care?

I would turn around that your insistence effectively causes you to "play god" with the health of others by promoting quackery. Unfortunately, in the real world, people die pursuing quackery that "feels good" or they want to "believe in."

I would also add that promotion of the unscientific breeds ignorance.

--J.D.

 

[Guest]

Okay, I'll try.

I believe that there should be certain regulations when selling material that the sick and desperate are told will do things for them. I am not dictating anything. I think there should be regulations. I don't think it's a far stretch to suggest we have rules that say, "What I sell you should actually do what I say it does."

Already agree with that.

Governments generally do have the right to make laws and regulations designed to protect its citizens. Ever hear of speed limits? Fraud is fraud. Water is water.

Again already agreed to that, if it has been proven to contain blanks then remove it if it has something in it then leave it to be sold.

"Monopoly medicines" aside, if I had some dirt which I told you cured your problem, and offered to sell it to you for an amount - I'd hope you'd want some evidence or proof before you bought it and ate it.

I don't really see where you are going with the monopoly thing though. There are many labs, which make generic versions of just about every drug on the market. They are chemically identical and are just as effective as the "name brand". Let me see if I can remember this correctly: Hydrocodone is "LorTab™"

Monopoly as in pharmaceutical firms not small natural businesses trying to provide a more natural remedy As for eating dirt no sorry I grew out of that.
No I research before I do anything to my body I always have, I am not so stupid that I fall for a scam, I look and assess it first. Now I don’t have the scientific expertise to test each medical potion to find out what is in it, clearer labelling helps for that and I always ask my GP's advice first before I put anything in my mouth, (exceptions of course)

My question is this do you think businesses should be able to prey on the sick and desperate by selling them a substance which does nothing it is advertised to do? You have a water faucet at home, do you not? Why purchase lie-water? You see, the first thing you have to do is
#1 - Understand it is water.
#2 - Then drink it from the tap.
#3 - Understanding it is water; perhaps your placebo will remain.

Already answered it no I don’t think they should if it is proven to be a falsely made claim.
Water taps yes, its vile stuff.
Placebo effect works yet science can’t say why or do you dispute that too?
I am not disputing it could be all water, but until I see evidence (have not seen any to totally disprove it so I could ask you prove it back couldn’t I?) proving beyond anything that every remedy is water I will hold true to my beliefs until evidence is given and then I shall act accordingly.

What I am saying RS, is that it should be illegal for someone to sell a substance that claims it does something, when in fact it does not. That is fraud. If I sold you a homeopathic computer, and it didn't work, you'd want your money back. If I refused - you'd very likely sue me. Fraud is fraud. Homeopathy is a fraud.

Is their evidence that all homeopathic remedies are water? Not yet is there, the ones found yes are committing fraud and should be re-labelled or removed from sale. I agree anyway on that all have all along.

If it helped you, it's only because you believed in it. Understanding that is the first step!

No it got me through a tougher period I didn’t think I did believe in it, but obviously some part of me did and kick started a peaceful moment for me to prop me back up so to speak.
Understanding yes a first step? Not quite sure what you mean by that part?

If some cult leader approached you and told you that he could cure you of your illness and enlighten you, and all it would cost you is your life savings and entire bank account, would it be okay if I tried to stop you? Even if this cult is your "only hope".

No cults don’t wash with me period, treat them as I treat religion, not interested, as for enlighten me, not human on earth that can do that as enlighten to me means spiritual and I am not that way inclined.

I am very happy you didn't kill yourself. Just know that it was your belief in the water that saved you - not the water itself. Once you realize that, you are on the path to enlightenment.

No the water didn’t save me, there was something else, the water just gave me a kick-start to gain a brief moment of peace. The thing that save me from topping myself was.... the belief in this crazy world that I would find something to make all I am suffering worth the while, if I didn’t then I would enjoy all the music, art, books, people, winter, and laughter while I was still in it and wake people up by being my natural warm, friendly and annoyingly crazy caringly self.

If you are saying that people will kill themselves if homeopathy were made illegal - well, that is sad. I'm sure some probably would. Many people would probably kill themselves if there was a sudden realization that god didn't exist also. People kill themselves for many reasons, many of which are not fathomable to those who are not suicidal. When you feel like offing yourself, talk to someone. Heck, talk to me.

No I didn’t say that at all, I am just saying your quashing some bodies beliefs, that’s cruel and cold, it's down to them in the end, it's not a perfect world and we are not perfect people, all have a right to believe in something, better protection yes, but only ban homeopathy if at the end of the day all of it is water, everybody agrees to banning it.

But you didn't understand it was just water. You didn't understand the dilution factors.

No your telling me I don’t understand things, I did understand I understood what I needed to know, I was not on a scientific mission if I was then I would have gone in far deeper than what I do anyway. I wouldn’t talk to you andalyn, I am too proud/stubborn/pigheaded to do that. I hate you to feel put upon if I did. If you guess I am low then that’s your call to make and I may respond, but I wont ever say. Thanks anyway.

I don't deny you the right to believe in something. I wish to deny the ability of a business to market a product, which preys on the sick and desperate people who will believe anything. AGAIN - If I sold you something, which I said did something, you would expect it to do as advertised. WHY IS HOMEOPATHY DIFFERENT IN YOUR MIND???

You wont understand andalyn because your not me, your not in my position, nor do you suffer what I do, you cant understand and I would not even try to explain it because I couldn’t convey in words the exact feelings etc of me. I am not saying homeopathy is great (I don’t) I am saying it helps people maybe for all the wrong reasons but it helps people get by, ok if the labelling said water and it was banned as everybody agreed to its ban then fine I don’t have a problem with it, I worry about people like me out there screaming inside who just want a small bit of peace/break once in a while.

I guess you believe Fraud laws should be suspended when it comes to your particular belief. What it everyone thought this way?

No you’re presuming you know what I think again.

Not trashing anything. It is fraud. Magnets in shoes are fraud. Homeopathy is fraud.

Anything proven to be 101% fraud I feel the same way.

I could say that I care more about humanity, because I wish to protect the weak, sick, desperate and gullible from the vultures of fringe "medicine".

Same here, but I care about people too. Fringe medicines you cant trash them all for the fraudulent acts of a few. If its fraud then its gone and all credibility will cease with that area, but equally as one vanishes another pops back up...why.... because there are people suffering out there in the big bad world that modern medicines have turned there back on.

Again, you should ask yourself this: Does believing in something ultimately make it okay, no matter what?

No it doesn’t and I don’t think that way either, you presume again. All my life people have told me what I think, and trashed nay thinking I did on my own because it dint fit the sterotypical views held by everybody else, not one has ever asked me or tried to see my views form my point in time. They're to quick to tell me what to do and that makes me sad for them.
My fault I care I worry and I am warm and compassionate its curse.

human moi.

 

[Guest]

Radiating Sunflower:


One may do whatever one wishes until it impacts upon someone else. You can believe that water cures a certain ill, you can believe that "univocal" magnets exist to "realign" your "meridians," you can even believe that Alanis Morrisette can sing.

If it's your own personal wish why does it have to impact on others, nobody is saying you have to take or do that because it helped or gave me a good vibe are they?

However, to expect others to share in them you have to provide evidence.

That Doctor X should swing both ways in a debate. Agree?
Where is all this evidence to say the whole of homeopathy is water and therefore is actively committing fraud?

That you believed the Oil of Serpent cured you of your ill does not really measure up against medications that do . Others cannot apply your belief to themselves.

Did I say they had to apply my belief at that time to themselves? Answer is no I would never ask such a thing of anybody. Everyone has their own mind and should use it, what suits me will not suit another.

Why care?

Why not care?

I would turn around that your insistence effectively causes you to "play god" with the health of others by promoting quackery. Unfortunately, in the real world, people die pursuing quackery that "feels good" or they want to "believe in."

And you sir does not know me, as this statement shows. Presumption. I would not play god nor would I advocate playing god with anybody, sir I request a retraction or re-wording of this statement as I am deeply offended and upset by your remarks.

I would also add that promotion of the unscientific breeds ignorance.--J.D.

I would add intolerance of another’s personal belief also breed ignorance. Science has to give and take science in the manner I gathered by the tone of the latter paragraph just takes and is unwavering of staid stifled self preservation views it believes in. Science is only as right as time and advancements allows it to be it is not the be and end all of time, it should admit mistakes and not hide the truth, How can anybody believe science when by it s own admission is flawed.

moi own views from brain, currently n scietific data has been allowed out of the top secret lab looking into R-s memory store. The world could not cope is the issued statement.

 

[Guest]

And from this you believe that anything that gives you the same symptoms of any illness you have will cure it?

No dear richard I never said I belived it in the first place I gave you what homeopathists follow by way of principles, thats their belief and not mine.


moi.

 

[Guest]

I was reminding you what you wrote.

But OK, please tell me, what do you think about the claim of homeopathy that "like cures like"?

Hypothetically In theory sounds like it should work kill the orginal illness with what the illness symptons itself presents, in reality far more testing is needed on that theory.

moi

 

[Guest]

When you post something on a message board, it is of course implied that you wrote it yourself. It is the same as in any body of writing in a professional or academic setting: It is incumbent upon you to explicitly indicate which parts are not your own words and whose words they are.

what write is mine (like this)unlessI have copied it from another source and that I say is so. and I did say that all along anyway so no i am not a plague.


moi aussi note, in the begining r_s said where the information she had came from ie hardrive brain search engine , but she never kept the full who where or whats it was for personal use and that wishes flatworm to stop calling her a plague.

 

[Guest]

When you are done with the pity ploy, try to get to some substance.

Cheers,

When you can learn to show some respect and manners you may get a reply from but until that time appears then its silence to you.

I am not using any ploy at all, it’s my own personal experience and I thought it relevant to show homeopathies placebo effect does and can in some cases work.

You on the other hand are picking up minute things that hold nothing of interest or relevance like asking Ma’at for information on the debate she read about in the Netnews, one that she put she didn’t bother reading as it was a fallacy that anybody could think about banning any medicine if it contained side effects, and because of that it held no interest to her to read further than the small part she read in general and yet you still demand in depth information.

As you have to resort to the use of vitriol to cover your own stupidity, then I feel very sad for you.

moi aussi

 

[Flatworm]

what write is mine (like this)unlessI have copied it from another source and that I say is so. and I did say that all along anyway so no i am not a plague.

In that case, what is this?

Flatworm he took the substence, from the experince he then found it was similar he then gave it to malaria suffers and it healed them, he didnt have the disease he tok it on himself to prove another docotrs recommendation was wrong and it was .

I am not that old, I wasnt around and if Iwas I havent found that memory

HOMEOPATHY
Homeopathy is a scientific method of therapy based on the principle of stimulating the body's own heating processes in order to accomplish cure. The basic system was devised and verified by Samuel Hahnemann, a German physician, nearly 200 years ago. Hahneman's research revealed that diluted substances had the ability to stimulate the body to cure diseases that would be caused by the same substance in large dosages. Homeopathy's astounding success rates in both chronic and acute diseases has resulted in not only standing the test of time, but rapidly achieving wide-spread acceptance in Europe, India and South America. In Homeopathy each of us is a total, complete individual, no aspect of which can be separated from any other. To be effective, any valid therapy must be based on a deep understanding of and respect for the uniqueness of each individual.

Ruta is a common homeopathic remedy that has been used for over 100 years for the treatment of eye strain. Symptoms such as aching over the eyebrows, eye fatigue after reading, blurred vision, burning, headaches, letters running together and tearing are all symptoms that ruta can benefit as reported by A. B. Norton, MD in the book Ophthalmic Disease and Therapeutics. Since the laws of homeopathy deal with dilute substances to stimulate the healing of the body, a large amount of Ruta is not needed. One pellet of the Ruta, taken every 2 hours during eye strain is all that is necessary. During severe periods of eye strain, one pellet should be dissolved in a glass of water and one teaspoon can be taken every 15 minutes. The water should be stirred gently between each dose


__________________

Everything from below "HOMEOPATHY" was plagiarized word for word.

 

[Guest]

When you can learn to show some respect and manners you may get a reply from but until that time appears then its silence to you.

That is your choice. However, I note for the record that you have changed your position before you even got started here. You see, you previously said:

The rest of your rave I respond to later, a few things you have written are below the belt and unwarrented.

So, you see, we are all forced now to make at least one assumption. We must assume you don't have good answers to the points I raised.

b]I am not using any ploy at all, it?s my own personal experience and I thought it relevant to show homeopathies placebo effect does and can in some cases work.[/b]

The "placebo effect" does not "work." The "placebo effect" is the ILLUSION that the placebo works. What happens is the person who receives a known inactive substance either gets better on their own or convinces themselves that they have gotten better.

As you have to resort to the use of vitriol to cover your own stupidity, then I feel very sad for you.

You are resorting to this ad hom attack as a deflection from the topics at hand and the points I raised. Please address those points, one by one.

Cheers,

 

[Guest]

Science is only as right as time and advancements allows it to be it is not the be and end all of time, it should admit mistakes and not hide the truth, How can anybody believe science when by it s own admission is flawed.

Please defend these assertions:
1) Science is hiding some truth.
2) Science by its own admission is flawed.

Cheers,

 

[RichardR]

No dear richard I never said I belived it in the first place I gave you what homeopathists follow by way of principles, thats their belief and not mine.

Good. So presumably we must be agreed that homeopathy doesn't work? Because if you don't believe "like cures like", you can't believe homeopathy works.

 

[Guest]

Me

Are you again unable to answer yet more of my calls for you to support your assertions? Another possible hypothesis is you are babbling to yourself.

Cheers,

 

[Guest]

moi

Apparently, you have the IQ of a bag of roasted peanuts. To shell with you, then.

Jeers,

 

[Guest]

As I researched into homeopathy about 4 years ago and all the information I collected and stored all interested and relevant research on my computer for my own personal insight to whether or not should I take it up to gain some relief. I did not know where or who it all belonged to or to which books I had read care of the GP (it wasn't necessary for me to keep that ).

After a quick PM'ing with another member it was suggested and appeared to be the only root to I could take to appease them was that I delete it all(my stuff and prob means some of yours may disappear to) as I had no idea where it came from, rather than falsely post up it came from here links when it didnt, which still makes me a plague.

So if nobody has any objection I will delete everything of mine and take some of yours in the process, and leave this topic in a bit of a state.

If I do not see any objection on here or via pm to me its will all go, including my own opinions on the subject. So ensureing another is happy..

Dub advance apology when I start deleting it really going to mess it up.

I would also ask those who have quoted me remove it to if the mass deletion is to go ahead. Please respect my wishes to have it removed, I dont want to have any trouble following me around because you didnt that is unfair on me.

I still stand by my views on it, this is my own personal feelings and ideals, I cant give data to verify my feelings for your satisfactory requirements, it cant be done.

I had said I didnt know the orginal sources and seeing as there is amountain or it out there on the net and in books you also can look into it, as flatworm showed multiple sites show the same thing as with many books and not just on homeopathy.


R-s

 

[Lothian]

R-S. I disagree. You shouldn’t delete what you have written unless you want to. I am not going to.

You have claimed to study homeopathy for 4 years without understanding the most basic mathematical concepts (we are only talking about multiplication and division here ). You make “quotes” from material you can’t source. You have admitted both.

All you need to do is learn that if you make a claim here you need to either back it up or have it exposed as incredible. The latter has been achieved this time but I am sure you will bounce back.

You really should do something about the maths though. I highly recommend Innumeracy by John Allen Paulos which guides the reader through the pitfalls that numerical illiteracy can bring.

 

[RichardR]

As I researched homeopathy about 4 years and all the information I collected and stored all interested and relevant research on my computer for my own personal insight t whether or not I take it up togain some relief. I do not know where or who it all belongs to or which books I read care of the GP (it wasn't necessary for me to keep that ) after a quick PM'ing with another member it was suggested and appeared to be the only root to I could take to appease them was that I delete it all(my stuffand prob means some of yours may disappear to) as I had no idea where it came from, rather than falsely post up it came from here links when it didnt, which still makes me a plague.

So if nobody has any objection I will delete everything of mine and take some of yours in the process, and leave this topic in a bit of a state.

If I do not see any objection on here or via pm to me its will all go, including my own opinions on the subject. So ensureing another is happy.

Dub advance apology when I start deleting it really going to mess it up.

I would also ask those who have quoted me remove it to if the mass deletion is to go ahead.

R-s

R-S

Have you now changed your mind on homeopathy? If so, just state what you do now believe and leave what you have already posted there. Deleting previously posted stuff is not necessary and is not favored.

If you have not changed your mind then what are you talking about?