Should Homeopathy be illegal?

[Guest]

R-S

Have you now changed your mind on homeopathy? If so, just state what you do now believe and leave what you have already posted there. Deleting previously posted stuff is not necessary and is not favored.

If you have not changed your mind then what are you talking about?

No richardR I havent changed my views at all on it and still stand by wht I think shouldhappen to homeopathy, but somebody else that commented on this board suggested it, and as I wish not to cause offence and keep being called a plague out of respect for their advice and seeing as no other solution can be found deleting of the entire lot is the only option left and so end any offence.

I cant say where I got my data from, and that is a big no no so its a delete or leave it.

 

[Guest]

R-S. I disagree. You shouldn’t delete what you have written unless you want to. I am not going to.

You have claimed to study homeopathy for 4 years without understanding the most basic mathematical concepts (we are only talking about multiplication and division here ). You make “quotes” from material you can’t source. You have admitted both.

All you need to do is learn that if you make a claim here you need to either back it up or have it exposed as incredible. The latter has been achieved this time but I am sure you will bounce back.

You really should do something about the maths though. I highly recommend Innumeracy by John Allen Paulos which guides the reader through the pitfalls that numerical illiteracy can bring.

No lothian I said I researched into it 4 years ago, when I was offered it via my GP to get me through. All I was intrested in is not a full scientific study but personal insight nothing ore nothing less,parts I didnt want I left like the mathmatics, maths wasnt going to help me the remedies were.

As for the data I put up I said all along I didnt know where I sourced it from 4 years ago I wasnt planning to add my personal view on it anywhere that is irrelevant, I was not doing anything bad,I was upfront about it and you all forget I only just joined and am still finding my feet.

Now I know slightly better, but I would still stand by it as this is my own personal belief I cant and wont ever be able to back up what my own thoughts.
My thoughts are my own my views are my own, I dont hold back up data for something I looked into 4 years ago.

get it?

I cant source id my feelings or old researched into's therefore to stop being called a plague I have to delete it all or bare face lie that it came from this or that link, which willput me back into square 1 again.

This is my view my personal belief and feelings on homeopathy. its like saying I like hazelnut whirls in quality street I cant give you back up for that.

 

[Guest]

[quote[
I cant source id my feelings or old researched into's therefore to stop being called a plague I have to delete it all or bare face lie that it came from this or that link, which willput me back into square 1 again.

This is my view my personal belief and feelings on homeopathy. its like saying I like hazelnut whirls in quality street I cant give you back up for that. [/QUOTE]a

Liking hazelnut whirls is a matter of personal taste. Whether homeopathy works or not is a matter of fact. It is right or it is wrong. If you want to drop the discussion, fine. If you want to retreat from claiming you can back up the claim that it works, fine. If you want to find out the truth of the matter, even better. But to revise history by deleting your posts and asking others to delete theirs? No. You wrote what you wrote. Others wrote what they wrote. Still others saw the discussion. It can't be made to disappear.

Cheers,

 

[Guest]

So the consensus is not to delete which still leaves me in a quandry regarding one members pm to me about it.

Billyhoyt exactly homeopathy is my personal taste.

I am not retracting any of my personal views at all.

I still stand by homeopathy shouldnt be illegal,it however should have more labeling of its products and checked.

I want it to go only to appease the other person nothing more nothing less.

I dont like upsetting people and I am very upset that they are and wish to wish to correct it.


shoot me I'm too human

 

[Guest]

I still stand by homeopathy shouldnt be illegal,it however should have more labeling of its products and checked.

Fraud is illegal, R-S. In the U.S., homeopathy was grandfathered into the law, by a homeopath, surprise surprise, as the U.S began clamping down on medical fraud. That is the only thing keeping it legal here.

Cheers,

 

[Guest]

Fraud is illegal, R-S. In the U.S., homeopathy was grandfathered into the law, by a homeopath, surprise surprise, as the U.S began clamping down on medical fraud. That is the only thing keeping it legal here.

Cheers,

frauds illegal over here too.(uk)

Still say it shouldnt be made illegal, but labelled more displayed information and more and products tested any that are found to be blatent water only removed if it ends up with them all being removed so be it.

 

[richardm]

Hi -

So, can I take it we're all agreed that if a homeopathic remedy contains nothing but water then selling it as a remedy should be illegal under current fraud laws?

 

[Guest]

Hi -

So, can I take it we're all agreed that if a homeopathic remedy contains nothing but water then selling it as a remedy should be illegal under current fraud laws?

Apparently so. The next step seems to be the major hurdle...

Cheers,

 

[Lothian]

Hi -

So, can I take it we're all agreed that if a homeopathic remedy contains nothing but water then selling it as a remedy should be illegal under current fraud laws?

I have posted this before but it is hidden in the 10 pages of this thread.

Legislation for homoeopathic medicines in the UK.
In order to qualify for registration the products must:
· be for oral or external use. This includes all methods of administration with the exception of injections;
· be sufficiently dilute to guarantee their safety;
· make no therapeutic claims

If by 'remedy' you mean they claim it cures then it is illegal. I suspect that the following claims would be:-

'Used as a cure for headaches' ok
'Cures Headaches' illegal.

'Taken for backache' ok
'Relives backache' illegal

I assume this as I saw a magnetic bracelet that had on the packaging. 'Many people believe magnetic bracelets relieve.........

 

[NoDeity]

I've read most of the thread, but not all of it, so I don't know whether or not anyone has posted a link to HomeoWatch: http://www.homeowatch.org/ -- from Stephen Barrett, M.D., of QuackWatch fame.

You'll find articles there about dilution, the "Law of Similars" and the history of homeopathy.

Here are a few brief excerpts:

Proponents call homeopathy's defining principle the "Law of Similars." ("Like cures like.") This holds that substances that cause healthy people to get symptoms can cure diseases that have these symptoms. This idea is a form of "sympathetic magic" similar to the primitive idea that eating the heart of a lion will make a person brave.

From http://www.homeowatch.org/basic/similars.html

Homeopathy's founder (Samuel Hahnemann, M.D.) himself realized there was virtually no chance that an original molecule would remain after extreme dilutions. But he declared that vigorous shaking ("succussion") or pulverizing between dilutions would leave behind a spirit-like essence that cures by reviving the body's "vital force."

From http://www.homeowatch.org/basic/infinitesimals.html

The HomeoWatch site is not yet complete but there is a lot of good information there.

Bottom line: homeopathic remedies have not been shown to work, except perhaps to cure dehydration, and so it should not be legal to sell them as if they were medicine.

 

[richardm]

I have posted this before but it is hidden in the 10 pages of this thread.



If by 'remedy' you mean they claim it cures then it is illegal. I suspect that the following claims would be:-

'Used as a cure for headaches' ok
'Cures Headaches' illegal.

'Taken for backache' ok
'Relives backache' illegal

I assume this as I saw a magnetic bracelet that had on the packaging. 'Many people believe magnetic bracelets relieve.........

Hi Lothian -

No, I read your comments about this. Nevertheless, the word "Remedy" is one that is widely used by the homeopathic industry. For example, this one from Boots the Chemist :

Click on the 'Please read' button below for general information on homoeopathic remedies and important medical advice.

. I suspect it is a handy weasel-word that doesn't mean anything in a legal sense.

It would be nice to be able to report them to Trading Standards, but I suspect you'd have to be fortunate enough to hit a like-minded inspector to get anywhere.


Edited to add: Mind you, I notice that the website is cagey about making specific claims for the packets.

 

[Lothian]

Hi Lothian -

No, I read your comments about this. Nevertheless, the word "Remedy" is one that is widely used by the homeopathic industry. For example, this one from Boots the Chemist : . I suspect it is a handy weasel-word that doesn't mean anything in a legal sense.

It would be nice to be able to report them to Trading Standards, but I suspect you'd have to be fortunate enough to hit a like-minded inspector to get anywhere.


Edited to add: Mind you, I notice that the website is cagey about making specific claims for the packets.

I agree that 'Remedy' appears to be a general word that means little. Clicking on the 'please read' gives the 'remedies' for common ailments. Most start with "Use for...." "Take for...." "Use when..." giving no claims, however some do make claims. "Arnica. Helpful for all injuries that lead to brusing" "Coffea. will help relieve the short, dry couch of measles." "acid Phos" helps with heartburn.." I think I may write to Boots to question these claims in light of the legislation.

 

[Guest]

Arnica is used for bruisng, sure that is mainstream usage now will check it out later and edit accordingly.

 

[Guest]

Hi -

So, can I take it we're all agreed that if a homeopathic remedy contains nothing but water then selling it as a remedy should be illegal under current fraud laws?

hi

Ish,, not all homepathic remedies have been checked throughly yet and the water arent the only part of the range.

 

[richardm]

Clicking on the 'please read' gives the 'remedies' for common ailments.

So it does! Hmm. I wonder why the separation between the pictures of the packets and the description of their supposed effect. More weaseling? I wonder if Watchdog might be interested. Probably not

 

[richardm]

hi

Ish,, not all homepathic remedies have been checked throughly yet and the water arent the only part of the range.

Hi R-S -

I think that we've established several times on this thread that above a certain level of C (17C, was it?) there is no active ingredient in a homeopathic remedy.

 

[Lothian]

Arnica is used for bruisng, sure that is mainstream usage now will check it out later and edit accordingly.

R-S. You are missing the very point RichardM and I are making. This is not about mainstream use but false advertising.
I know many people who advocate arnica for bruising. I know people that believe that crossing your fingers gives luck and people that think if you step on the cracks in the paving stones then bears will get you. Only the former is regulated however. To avoid fraudsters, if you are to sell something with a claim that it will have a medicinal effect then that product must be licensed. To do that it must go though proper medical testing to prove that it works.
An exception exists with homeopathic medicines. The are licensed without being subject to any testing on the condition that they don’t make any claims that they work.
In the boots advert there is a claim that arnica works. They can only make that claim if they are licensed, not as a homeopathic medicine but, as a real one. One that has been subject to proper testing. As far as I am aware arnica has not passed any such test.

 

[richardm]

- Indeed. And come to think of it, why should we have to check the stuff? We're not the ones selling it as a remedy and raking in huge swathes of cash.

 

[Guest]

Hi R-S -

I think that we've established several times on this thread that above a certain level of C (17C, was it?) there is no active ingredient in a homeopathic remedy.

The limit is reached around 12C (or 24X). By R-S' own rules, then, are we all agreed that all homeopathic nostrums at 12C or higher are pure water and therefore sold fraudulently?

Cheers,

 

[NoDeity]

The limit is reached around 12C (or 24X). By R-S' own rules, then, are we all agreed that all homeopathic nostrums at 12C or higher are pure water and therefore sold fraudulently?

You forget:

vigorous shaking ("succussion") or pulverizing between dilutions would leave behind a spirit-like essence that cures by reviving the body's "vital force." (Hahnemann)