Should Homeopathy be illegal?

[Elaborate]

R-S

1) The few failures, mistreatments, and misdiagnosises (spelling? plural of misdiagnosis) have absolutely nothing to do with the validity of homeopathy. This is not a case in which if one option is false, the other must be true. You must provide evidence for your position for anyone to accept it.

2) On you "like cures like" idea. What of penicillin? This antiboitic does not produce symptoms of the disease-causing bacteria it kills. If that idea does not hold up in all cases, it cannot be true. The scientifically proven fact is that quinine kills the malaria parasite. According to here, quinine is rarely used anymore, being replaced by synthetic drugs like chloroquine and mefloquine.

 

[xouper]

... after diluting it to the point of one part in 10^23, you'd be lucky to have a single molecule of the active ingredient left.

Depends on the volume. For example, in a gallon of 12C arsenic, one would expect to have about 128 molecules of arsenic, not just one.

 

[xouper]

God can I stop now. I'm bored

Yes, please stop. I'm bored too, of reading your incoherent blatherings and unsubstantiated assertions on the topic of homeopathy.

 

[Ipecac]

R-S,

You will find that on this board, saying "I believe" with no evidence to back up that belief won't get you very far. Sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling won't either.

If you communicate clearly, express your views and are willing to discuss and exchange information, you'll get along fine, regardless of whether or not people agree with you.

 

[dmarker]

No why?

similars help the body nice
opposites dont bad

So more codine should help your body overcome your addiction?

 

[Doctor X]

With all due respect one cannot debate with a closed mind.

To paraphrase Penn of Penn & Teller, "we cured polio." Whatever unsubstantiated claim a proponent of homeopathy and other quackery wishes to make, science came up with a vaccine.

THUS FAR, homeopathy has not demonstrated a verifiable clinical effect.

Game.

Set.

Match.

--J.D.

 

[Ipecac]

With all due respect one cannot debate with a closed mind.

To paraphrase Penn of Penn & Teller, "we cured polio." Whatever unsubstantiated claim a proponent of homeopathy and other quackery wishes to make, science came up with a vaccine.

THUS FAR, homeopathy has not demonstrated a verifiable clinical effect.

Game.

Set.

Match.

--J.D.

Well said.

 

[xouper]

So more codine should help your body overcome your addiction?

If it's a 30C dilution of codeine, then yes. A 200C dilution would be even more effective.

 

[rem]

R-S doesn't even know what we are talking about when we use the term Homeopathy. R-S has some book with the word "Homeopathy" on the cover and believes that every remedy inside the book is Homeopathic. The remedy that R-S described is clearly NOT a Homeopathic remedy - it is an herbal remedy.

I also believe that R-S thinks that the higher the X value, the HIGHER the concentration of the medication. This is the opposite of Homeopathy in which the higher numbers mean a more dilute substance. R-S clearly does not understand what he/she is arguing.

In the words of Abraham Lincoln: "Better to remain silent and to be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

rem

 

[Guest]

Re: R-S

1) The few failures, mistreatments, and misdiagnosises (spelling? plural of misdiagnosis) have absolutely nothing to do with the validity of homeopathy. This is not a case in which if one option is false, the other must be true. You must provide evidence for your position for anyone to accept it.

2) On you "like cures like" idea. What of penicillin? This antiboitic does not produce symptoms of the disease-causing bacteria it kills. If that idea does not hold up in all cases, it cannot be true. The scientifically proven fact is that quinine kills the malaria parasite. According to here, quinine is rarely used anymore, being replaced by synthetic drugs like chloroquine and mefloquine.

Try reading you will see abut 4 different discussions going on at the same time.

 

[Guest]

R-S doesn't even know what we are talking about when we use the term Homeopathy. R-S has some book with the word "Homeopathy" on the cover and believes that every remedy inside the book is Homeopathic. The remedy that R-S described is clearly NOT a Homeopathic remedy - it is an herbal remedy.

I also believe that R-S thinks that the higher the X value, the HIGHER the concentration of the medication. This is the opposite of Homeopathy in which the higher numbers mean a more dilute substance. R-S clearly does not understand what he/she is arguing.

In the words of Abraham Lincoln: "Better to remain silent and to be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

rem

Better to be a fool, than be a cold hearted cynic

Strange as a homeopath gave me it and its in many homeopathic books.
Herbalism and homeopathy cross over if you so in the know would know that too.
So a book on homeopathy is wrong now is it?

You dont know what I think so dont make assumptions until your qualifed to do so and your not. How is 200x weaker than 30x then not what I have read .

 

[Guest]

If it's a 30C dilution of codeine, then yes. A 200C dilution would be even more effective.

How is adding more codine going to stop your addiction then?

this should be interesting

 

[Lothian]

How is adding more codine going to stop your addiction then?

this should be interesting

.(I could be pedantic here but won't) a 200C solution has less codine in it than a 30C solution.

RS much as you dislike maths you really need to understand what is going on here.

Homeopathy is a title that may originally have applied to a certain principals but this has obviously been expanded.

The people you are arguing with do not claim that no homeopathic solution works. Homeopathic medicines come in different strengths. Strangely a strong solution has less of the active ingredient than a week one. Where there is some of the active ingredient in the medicine there is a possibility that it could work.

Why people argue against homeopathy is that the homeopaths say that even when the solution has been diluted so much there is none of the active ingredient left it still works. Science says all that can be working is what is left ie water (or alcohol), and you would get a the same effect as a non homeopathic dose of water / alcohol.

The problem is that most homeopathic medicines are sold at strengths where none of the active ingredient is left, so people tend to write them all off. Personally I don't write off homeopathic medicines with active ingredients left. Like cures like is an appealing catchphrase however I can't understand why the people who sell these cures don't submit them for proper government testing. Any prescription drug has to be tested to show it works and is safe. I would not want to take anything that hadn't been through these procedures. There is certainly no lack of money in the alternative medicine industry so I can only conclude that these drugs are not put through formal testing because they either don't work or are not safe.

 

[Guest]

[B Like cures like is an appealing catchphrase however I can't understand why the people who sell these cures don't submit them for proper government testing. Any prescription drug has to be tested to show it works and is safe. I would not want to take anything that hadn't been through these procedures. There is certainly no lack of money in the alternative medicine industry so I can only conclude that these drugs are not put through formal testing because they either don't work or are not safe. [/B]

Well, umm, perhaps the answer would go something like this:

"Since the Congressional "reforms" of the mid-90s, we can make any claim we like about the curative power of our solutions, AND we no longer have to prove our solutions work. So NOW we make millions off of them, but if we DID prove they worked, then we would be proving they were powerful, which would mean the FDA would have jurisdiction over them. THEREFORE, submitting our solutions to independent clinical trials would have a bad outcome either way -- we would either prove they were useless, in which case we could go on selling them, or we would prove they worked, and then they would be regulated."

The best of both worlds is the current situation: the Homeopaths cannot be forced to prove that their solutions are curative, but they cannot be restricted until the American people grow up and insist that their government again make and enforce pure food and drug laws.

 

[Lothian]

Well, umm, perhaps the answer would go something like this:

"Since the Congressional "reforms" of the mid-90s, we can make any claim we like about the curative power of our solutions, AND we no longer have to prove our solutions work. So NOW we make millions off of them, but if we DID prove they worked, then we would be proving they were powerful, which would mean the FDA would have jurisdiction over them. THEREFORE, submitting our solutions to independent clinical trials would have a bad outcome either way -- we would either prove they were useless, in which case we could go on selling them, or we would prove they worked, and then they would be regulated."

The best of both worlds is the current situation: the Homeopaths cannot be forced to prove that their solutions are curative, but they cannot be restricted until the American people grow up and insist that their government again make and enforce pure food and drug laws.

Not so in the UK. Homeopathic medicines must make no claims that they work.

legislation for homoeopathic medicines
In order to qualify for registration the products must:
· be for oral or external use. This includes all methods of administration with the exception of injections;
· be sufficiently dilute to guarantee their safety;
· make no therapeutic claims

 

[Guest]

Should Homeopathy be illegal, answered by radiating-sunflower? 'No, the only time that it should be, is when one of the individual remedies has been proven that it has no active ingredient in its makeup, or does not work at all.'

Radiating-sunflower ' I know what I know solely based on what I have come across, I am not a homeopath or a scientist I can only comment on what I have learnt in taking an interest in this subject, these are my own personal views and they are based on what I have read about it, people I have talked to, and what I have actually experienced'

Radiating-sunflower ' I'm open to other ideas that prove either way and on receiving these will make a uniform judgement to whether I change my personal views or not.'

Radiating-sunflower ' I have the experienced both the good and bad of most medical cures. And on that basis I call upon that as a back up for my own views. Paper trials when compared to actual experience pale into insignificance.'

Radiating-sunflower' Addiction to OTC drugs is rising as per links show. Once in the body like that of an alcoholic it remains'

Ma'at, Only a view that a recovering alcoholic or another OTC addict would know about.

Radiating-sunflower' Modern medicine can cause more illnesses than they cure by there side effects, not in all cases but is a rising tide.'

Ma'at, A debate that is raging currently about whether modern medicines should be allowed to continue to be used with some serious side effects/any side effects that are worse or additional to the original symptom. The cure should not mean another illness that is less than the original symptom is preferable. A medicinal cure should mean just that a cure; the end does not justify the means.

The answer has been answered, the arguments goal posts have now been moved, redefintion is needed to what is now required or has been asked.

 

[Guest]

xouper 'Yes, please stop. I'm bored too, of reading your incoherent blatherings and unsubstantiated assertions on the topic of homeopathy.Originally posted by dmarker
So more codine should help your body overcome your addiction?
If it's a 30C dilution of codeine, then yes. A 200C dilution would be even more effective.

Radiating-sunflower 'How is adding more codine going to stop addiction?

Lothian'.(I could be pedantic here but won't) a 200C solution has less codine in it than a 30C solution'

Ma'at, xouper ridiculous statement to make and narrow minded. Radiaitn -sunflower has made her own substaniated views ones she basd onwhat she read and what she personally experienced. If you have decided that she is was an expert and now have found she is not in this field you cannot justify your response by saying she isnt qualifed when she has stimpulated all along she is not qualifed in this area and all views are her own from gained experince. She has been consistent.

Ma'at, Lothian radiating-sunflower appears not to care about the x factor, she expressed a view that homeopathy should not be made illegal, she has agreed many times that the remedies are diluted. I see no reason to continue arguing over a part that she has already agreed with previously several times and does not dispute. Again the goal post have moved and what is unclear is what is actually required, are you solely here to trash her own personal views, or to debate about whether homeopathy should be made illegal?
As for 200c and 30 c of codine then perhaps you should redirect it back xouper as did radiating-sunflower for answering.



Going around in circles with her and yet she stills hold true to her own beliefs.

 

[xouper]

xouper ridiculous statement to make and narrow minded.

You quoted two different comments of mine. To which were you referring with your remark, my dear Egyptian Goddess of Truth?

If it was my comment about the 200C codeine, then perhaps you didn't get the joke. The smiley face rolling on the floor laughing should have been a clue it was a joke.

If it was my comment about sunflower's incoherent blatherings on homeopathy, then I offer up as proof of my assertion her previous posts in this thread wherein she blathers on incoherently about homepathy and giving the impression she doesn't have a clue what anyone's talking about.

For example:

Originally posted by radiating-sunflower
How is adding more codine going to stop your addiction then?

It won't. And that's the point. It's a bit of sarcasm intended as a criticism of the homeopathic principle of "like cures like".

The other part of the joke is that homeopathic practitioners claim that a weaker dilution is actually a stronger remedy. So even though 200C is a weaker dilution than 30C, the claim is that 200C is somehow more effective as a remedy. Now that's what I would call ridiculous.

 

[Guest]

I am impresed you know my name meaning of truth and justice xouper.
Have you considered that she may not know what you are on about, therefore is confused by the moving goal posts of this debate?
Not everyone is a genius and not everyone understands the same thing.

Try explianing your needs wants desire proof clearly, rather than ripping her apart, you may gain a different response.

 

[xouper]

Try explianing your needs wants desire proof clearly, rather than ripping her apart, you may gain a different response.

Perhaps you haven't noticed that several people (including myself) have already tried that without success. Maybe you could give it a try and let me know how it goes.