Science vs Teleology: Which lens is best for viewing 911?

Pardalis,

Surely you can agree 911 was a crime.

As Ryan Mackey and others have noted, 911 calls for a criminal investigation, which is the synthesis of method, opportunity, and motive.

So Pardalis, why do you shrink from Major Tom's simple point that motive should be considered?

Motive has been considered and we know exactly what Al Qaeda's motives are. Bin Laden and his co-conspirators have never been shy about saying what they want or what they're willing to do to get it. Some of the hijackers even made nifty little martyr videos proclaiming their motives.
 
Buy one war, and get the second war FREE!

Motive has been considered and we know exactly what Al Qaeda's motives are. Bin Laden and his co-conspirators have never been shy about saying what they want or what they're willing to do to get it. Some of the hijackers even made nifty little martyr videos proclaiming their motives.


"Al Qaeda's" motives are clear, we are told.

But what are the motives of those who told us that?
 
People see what they expect to see, not what is really there.

Pomeroo,

If you go for a walk on the beach some day after it's been windy, what do you see? Beautiful waves in the sand, evenly spaced, with magnificent bifurcations - always at just the perfect place to maintain the broad motif.

And as you look at those ripples in the sand, as far as the eye can see, ask yourself, "How do the zillions of tiny, dumb grains of sand 'know' how to arrange themselves into such coherent patterns many scale orders of magnitude greater than each grain?"

What would your answer be
Mr. Mathematical Impossibility?

Obviously, his answer would be that you are lying!

;)

However, this question is not the best one, since grains of sands really are dumb, as they cannot even give their names, never mind explain general relativity.

A better question would involve an analogous effect involving intelligent beings - at least bonobo chimps, though it'd be better to stick with humans, who communicate so much better.

I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned (I haven't read all of the thread), but maybe what you need is some kind of a reverse Turing test. A normal Turing test uses humans to figure out if a machine is intelligent.

However, a reverse Turing test would most likely be taken by a computer. It would analyze 911 facts, including players within the great 911 mystery, and attempt to compute whether observed behaviors can simply be ascribed to statistically probable ranges of competence, both personal and institutional, constrained by inescapable national security filters. In a sense, it's trying to detect an evil intelligence within a background noise of expected functioning, SNAFU's and all.

I don't have a reference handy, but there was an artificial intelligence program that analyzed stories to predict likely culprits in a divorce. (My apologies if I mangle the details...) So, e.g., if the story included a section wherein a divorce-prone husband is waited on by a very attractive waitress, the waitress would get some weight as a partner in infidelity, and thus a possible cause of divorce.

A conspiracy-detecting program might work by developing a model for what 'normal' interactions are like. That means, they also have to model institutional dumbness, individual dumbness, individual honest mistakes (say in a generally competent person), etc., and not just assume that mission statements are followed to the 't', by picture perfect employees. I assume that bona fide conspiracies will, in fact, leave traces (so to speak) in certain individuals' behavior. I.e., I assume that some 'fixers' will have to 'dumb down' official investigations, or flat out lie. Certain questions will have to not be asked, and certain lines of investigation not even begun to be followed. Certain SOP's will have to be either made inadequate, or allowed to persist in an inadequate state.

In other words, some people will have to consciously "be in on it", and not only help create a milieu where principled and individually competent people will nevertheless feel comfortable in partaking of institutional incompetence, but possibly also smack down whistle blowers and outside-the-box types who are inside the system, yet ask embarrassing questions of that system.

Unfortunately, not just creating such a computer program would be enormously difficult, but how would you validate it? It would be subject to the same sorts of criticism as the NIST report... :D

The divorce story AI program, BTW, was completely useless for any other purpose than for which it had been designed. That doesn't bode well for my proposal.
 
Major, I hate to nit-pick, but I don't believe a column-creep theory even exists. I think it has been more along the lines of, "assume column creep initiated collapse, and then use this starting point in collapse progression models."

Fair enough: Column creep hypothesis.

Could you rephrase the OP so we can focus on what you'd like?


Tricky. Notice how subtly the PRIMARY evidence (actual column collections from the key locations of interest) assumed a low level of importance while SECOND-HAND THEORETICAL GUESSES (computer simulations, abstract guesses by "experts") were elevated to center stage.

Tricky dudes. Ultimately, 9-11 "science" has become a series of speculations about what happened to the very objects that were originally available, but got tossed in the trash.


Science? NIST can claim that only 4 of 239 core columns from the key regions of importance "were recoverable" and our "experts" never question such a comically low recovery percentage.
 
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Pardalis,

Surely you can agree 911 was a crime.

As Ryan Mackey and others have noted, 911 calls for a criminal investigation, which is the synthesis of method, opportunity, and motive.

So Pardalis, why do you shrink from Major Tom's simple point that motive should be considered?

No evidence, no case.

Tourlou.
 
Exactly. And to make it easier, only the columns we already know to be of interest from videos of the collapse initiations would need to be considered.

There are well defined, key points within each tower where we all can see the initial "give" take place. These would have been the obvious columns to recover and study.

Frank made a subtle point on the first page of this thread:



"The simulacra of second hand reports". A computerized fire simulation as opposed to just looking at the columns in question and examining to see to what temperatures they were subject.

A simulated temperature distribution rather than the actual knowledge of the real temps.

A column creep theory rather than just looking at the columns in question and observing the actual creep.

An abstract theory of buckling rather than just looking at the columns in question and seeing how they buckled

Examination of actual key physical evidence replaced by the competing theories of "experts".




You're making the rather staggering error here of assuming these columns were in a state that provided they gave useful information. Given that the structure underwent enormous forces after the initiating event, any ability to determine the condition of the the structure immediately after initiating event, based on the final state of the debris, is severely limited.

The same applies for things like temperature. The structure was exposed to fire prior to collapse and after collapse, and distinguishing the two would not be seriously possible - especially given that the main method of assessing temperature - by analysing paint on the steel - was only effective for temperatures up to 250 degrees C after which the paint was destroyed.

Or in simple terms, Conspiracy Theorists imply that the debris pile was the be all and end all of evidence, and that failure to utilise every scrap of debris was somehow a failure of investigation. This could not be further from the truth.
 
These particular specimens contained all the information NIST claimed to be looking for:

1) Actual temperatures to which these columns were subject.
2) Temperature variation and burn scars between different points of the same specimen would show to what degree fireproofing was damaged by the airplane strikes
3) Comparing damage patterns found on groups of adjacent columns would reveal the actual failure mode causing collapse initiation.
4) Column buckling, high temperature column "creeping" could have been easily seen and verified.

In addition, NIST and yourselves could have easily quieted "nutty conspiracy theorists" the world over simply by showing us the columns in question and showing that there is no evidence of unexplained foreign chemicals or explosive devices.

Why should they and when were they aware of the nutty truthers claims?

MT said:
Were these specimens available and testable, neither Max Photon, A20 nor anyone would have had a basis for argument. Even Pomeroo could have debunked these people with one simple argument: Here are the columns in question, show me the foul play.



Instead NIST settled for the following approaches:

1) Actual temperatures to which these columns were subject.

They guessed through computer modelling. They then state that they couldn't verify whether the model was accurate because they collected an insufficient number of core and perimeter column samples with which to compare the results. They also admit that the samples collected do not show temperatures exceeding 250 degrees celsius.

YOu do know that samples of the steel were sent to independant invesigators dont you?

You do know that if you have a massive fire and inside that massive fire there is steel that the steel will become as nearly as hot as the fire?

The temps in the fire could easily have reached 1100 deg C.

Have you read the NIST report cause it sure does not seem like it?


MT said:
2) Temperature variation and burn scars between different points of the same specimen would show to what degree fireproofing was damaged by the airplane strikes

Again, not having sufficient samples to work with, this was guessed at also

A decent analysis of this subject can be found at the following thread

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116122

The samples found in the rubble still had how much fire proofing on them?


MT said:
3) Comparing damage patterns found on groups of adjacent columns would reveal the actual failure mode causing collapse initiation.
4) Column buckling, high temperature column "creeping" could have been easily seen and verified.

Column buckling was postulated and the actual buckle points on the actual columns in question were never examined or even discovered. No examples of high temp creeping could be shown in the reports due to a lack of samples

Go look at the videos in slow motion.

MT said:
So when you ask: Why else do you think they only used this small amount MT?

Theories based on an effort to cover up the actual evidence of the cause of collapse initiation do spring to mind.

So your scientific mind suddenly becomes clouded by bias? You are accusing the hundreds of NIST investigators of a cover up job? Congratulations.

MT said:
Honestly, Funk, does the recovery of only 4 of 329 column sections containing the key information that NIST was looking for make sense to you?

Thye have stated they only used what they cpould positively identify. You have again failed to see why. If you have a probelm with how they identified them then take it up with NIST.

MT said:
325 36 foot long column sections of 329 couldn't be identified? Honestly?

Argument from incredulity again? How about doing something other than looking at photos, making assumptions and disgusting accusations.
 
I suspect that had investigators:

  • Tagged and mapped (if only by photographs) where each piece came from in the debris field;
  • Examined the cross-sections of the columns;
  • Examined markings (if any);
  • Use the steel-type maps;
  • Used fire maps;
  • Used the process of elimination;
the original locations of most of the steel columns could have been identified. Those that couldn't have been positively IDed would at least have been constrained to tight regions.

Sorry, Max, but if the armchair quarterback on the internet forum seven years after the event* says he suspects the columns could have been identified, but the actual engineers who combed through the tangled mess of debris thought otherwise, then I'm more inclined to believe the latter. Take note, too, that the columns of interest for studying collapse initiation will inevitably be the ones most seriously damaged and hence the hardest to identify. One can presume that NIST made the judgement that misleading data was worse than no data at all, and from experience as a scientist I think I would probably make the same decision.

Dave

* And yes, that description applies to me as much as it does to you.
 
The description of the selection and identification process is in NCSTAR 1-3B.

I don't know why people think that NIST engineers were on site inspecting columns as they were first being moved to a secondary location. According to the report, they showed up at ground zero only for a "brief effort" (quoted from the report) the week of 10-7-01.

It was a brief effort because, as the report mentions, the group was made up largely of volunteers that had professional commitments elsewhere.

Acording to the report, engineers (referred to as "volunteers" in the report) first began to mark pieces to be saved in October, 2001, by walking through unsorted piles of debris stored at various recovery yards around NY.

At that time steel from WTC7 was mixed up with the other rubble so completely that NIST claims it was not possible to positively identify a single piece as belonging to WTC7.


And all this before the first visit to select steel for further study.


Just phenomenal just how many "filters" the debris was subject to even before the first efforts to inspect it by the "volunteers".


Where did anyone get the idea that there was any careful inspection of the columns on site by NIST engineers (volunteers with professional commitments elsewhere) as these columns were removed from ground zero?

Can you imagine freely mixing the metal from WTC7 with the other debris so thoroughly that the inspectors were unable to locate a single piece of WTC7 steel, and all before the first search for samples?
 
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So the debris pile of WTC7 was clearly separate from that of WTC 1 and 2 at ground zero. We can all see the distinct mound where WTC7 used to be.

Somebody made the decision to indiscrimately mix that rubble with the other rubble. NIST engineers aparently had no say in the decision.


The volunteers first arrive at these storage locations in October to search for useful samples to fullfull their mission statement, which includes, as they say, to find out how and why WTC7 collapsed.

The investigators claim that because of this mixing they were unable to positively identify even a single column as belonging to WTC7.

But they were originally separated at GZ.



Surreal. Who made such a decision? Why would they from the POV of conducting a valid investigation?
 
Surreal. Who made such a decision? Why would they from the POV of conducting a valid investigation?
When you say things like this I wouldn't call you stupid (as some others here would), you are, but I wouldn't say it...what does this have to do with the subject of this thread?
 
So the debris pile of WTC7 was clearly separate from that of WTC 1 and 2 at ground zero. We can all see the distinct mound where WTC7 used to be.


The "distinct mound" appears in a photo taken some days after the event, and well into recovery efforts. Much of the debris around WTC7 had been cleared by this point.

Does it really need pointing out to you that preservation of human life always takes precedent over preservation of evidence?
 
Does it really need pointing out to you that preservation of human life always takes precedent over preservation of evidence?
Are you surprised by the flippant way the moron movement views human life especially when it interferes with their idiotic world view?
 
Hey all you mathletes out there...


% WTC 1 & 2 steel collected
________________________ = ?

% WTC 7 steel collected
 
Maxwell C. Photon, we award you with this cetacian....

Are you surprised by the flippant way the moron movement views human life especially when it interferes with their idiotic world view?


They call him Flippant, Flippant, faster than lightning,
No-one you see, is smarter than he,
And we know Flippant, lives in a world full of wonder,
Flying there-under, under the c!

Everyone loves the king of the c,
Ever so kind and gentle is he,
Tricks he will do when children appear,
And how they laugh when he's near!

They call him Flippant, Flippant, faster than lightning,
No-one you see, is smarter than he,
And we know Flippant, lives in a world full of wonder,
Flying there-under, under the c!
 
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Does it really need pointing out to you that preservation of human life always takes precedent over preservation of evidence?

In NCSTAR 1-3B NIST claims that the WTC rubble was moved and mixed with other rubble in such a way that they were unable to locate even single column at the storage locations for further study.

This has nothing to do with the preservation of human life.

You cannot see anything contradictory between not being able to find a single WTC7 column for further testing and application of the scientific method to the problem of it's collapse?

Surreal.

Please do not post off-topic.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Lisa Simpson
 
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Max, I went number indeterminate in my undefined

Hey all you mathletes out there...


% WTC 1 & 2 steel collected
________________________ = ?

% WTC 7 steel collected


How is this on topic with the subject?


Everyone, quiet...quiet please. We need to stop for enigma again.


Enigma, the OP asks which lens is best for viewing 911. Ryan Mackey made an articulate case for criminal science: [scientific] method, opportunity, motive.

But a lens is a filter. So, the criminal science process is a filter - actually, many filters.

The collection of evidence - just one of these filters - was being discussed.


My post was in reference to that filter.



Please pay attention, keep quiet, or go away.


ETA: Here's a thought: why don't you answer the question?

Okay, guys, let's remember to be civil.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LibraryLady
 
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You cannot see anything contradictory between not being able to find a single WTC7 column for further testing and application of the scientific method to the problem of it's collapse?

The lack of identifiable debris is unfortunate, but I don't see how exactly this points towards any conclusion.
 

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