Science vs Teleology: Which lens is best for viewing 911?

[tsig]

Max, so A20 cannot post anymore?

Is he on any other forums that you know of? Any other discussions involving A20accessible?


What you have been hinting at can be considered a 2 tiered (or level) system. You mentioned as much.

Level 1 consists of events as they superficially seem to happen. A bunch of engineers doing a scientific study functions on this level.

Level 2 is "the man behind the curtain", cunning, sly, the secretive part of the magician, covert operations, tricking or "outsmarting" level one existence. Puppeteering level one existence when useful.


Level one is associated with routine, innocence, naivete, a belief that rules largely govern man, authority should be trusted at face value. Associated with "sheep"

Level 2 is inherently secretive. One of it's strongest defenses is in getting the sheep to believe it doesn't exist. "Nothing to fear, sheep. Just go on grazing".

It's nature is secretive and predatory, and in this sense is dominated by it's own egoistic cravings. Feeling, empathy is weakness. Traditionally associated with snake (serpent) or fox.

Level 2 behavior instinctively hides it's tracks. It's nature is to destroy evidence which can lead to exposure of the deed.




This 2 level interaction is just a basic model to illustrate some points.

People do speak of NIST's scientific investigation as if it was performed in a vaccuum.

What science can properly analyze "cunning"? Motive? Ulterior motive behind decision making? None.




For example, Frank made the following comments concerning the sceintific method used by NIST:





These are decent objections. Haven't seen any valid responses yet.


A dovelike innocence allows people to ignore the fact that there may have been people in high places that wished to sort through columns debris before NIST was allowed access.

When NIST claims it was only able to examine 4 of over 3oo core columns from the fire affected regions, motive and reason for choosing to examine such a tiny, insignificant fraction of samples escapes attention for those practicing the NISTian faith.


Therefore if you look at the 911 "problem" from the possibility of 2 general levels existing, you cannot just sheepishly accept purity of the scientific method without paying close attention to whether the imput data, or the scientists themselves, can be manipulated.

NIST's examination of only 4 of over 300 columns of the most important areas of the bulidings, the fire affected regions AND the collapse initiation zones, should raise a red flag to anyone not totally blind to the possibility of the manipulation of evidence.

The fact that you have accessed level two means the reptiles will get you. Do not mow your lawn!!

 

[Max Photon]

Speaking of sheer idiocy.....how about wiping the inhuman scum off of your lens

I really do not nor will I ever understand the sheer idiocy of the inhuman scum that is called the truth movement.

Ryan,

What lens is the above poster viewing 911 through?

 

[R.Mackey]

Ryan,

What lens is the above poster viewing 911 through?

If I'm not mistaken, the poster's words that you cited refer to his view of the Truth Movement, not September 11^th. I therefore cannot answer your question. I'm also not sure how it would be relevant.

 

[Max Photon]

...and he's very grating.

If I'm not mistaken, the poster's words that you cited refer to his view of the Truth Movement, not September 11^th. I therefore cannot answer your question. I'm also not sure how it would be relevant.

The Truth Movement is a response to September 11^th.

The poster's words are a response to the Truth Movement.

It seems to me that the poster's words indicate he's using a polarized filter that cuts out any light reflected by the Truth Movement.

 

[pomeroo]

The Truth Movement is a response to September 11^th.

The poster's words are a response to the Truth Movement.

It seems to me that the poster's words indicate he's using a polarized filter that cuts out any light reflected by the Truth Movement.

Be more specific. What "light" has the fantasy movement reflected? What has it gotten right in over six years of shrieking?

 

[Major_Tom]

The article linked below is a good example of the crude but effective model involving 2 levels of actions and decision making, one level remaining secret from the other.

There is evidence to suggest that 100,000 people were secretly executed by the South Korean military during the start of the Korean War with the US Govt documenting and photographing some of the "turkey shoots".


It is rather laborious to murder 100,000 people with small arms. Hard to keep secret. But it apparently it can be done.

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/AP_U.S._Okayed_Korean_War_Massacres_0705.html


How can one prove the existence of "an invisible hand" secretly operating behind an action.

Physical science and scientists can analyze only the specimens and data they have.

 

[Max Photon]

Pomeroo, let me give you a big HUGGIES

Be more specific. What "light" has the fantasy movement reflected? What has it gotten right in over six years of shrieking?

Pomeroo old chap, one of the benefits of having Apollo20 around was that he could help share the burden of changing your science nappy.


Consciousness - light - about 911 - beyond what was seen on TV that day - is emerging because of the opposing forces - the opposing processes - the opposing spirals - of the Official Story versus the Truth Movement.

Surely you have learned about - become conscious of - had illuminated - most of what you know about 911 through your opposition, in your case, to the Truth Movement. The same is true for everyone. I suspect Ryan would agree with that.


Consciousness emerges from opposition. (Indeed, that is the magnificence of debate.)

Consciousness comes from pain (in the asses).


I find it rather sorry that a TV talk show host such as yourself does not understand such a basic dimension of being human.

Max Photon
Mr. Bright


P.S. Your baby picture is pretty cute.

 

[gumboot]

The article linked below is a good example of the crude but effective model involving 2 levels of actions and decision making, one level remaining secret from the other.

There is evidence to suggest that 100,000 people were secretly executed by the South Korean military during the start of the Korean War with the US Govt documenting and photographing some of the "turkey shoots".

Are you seriously suggesting that South Koreans were totally oblivious to the thousands of people being executed around them?

 

[Major_Tom]

Are you seriously suggesting that South Koreans were totally oblivious to the thousands of people being executed around them?

Depends on which South Koreans you mean. Considering that the 100,000 or so people executed were Korean and had family in the surrounding villages, I'm sure there were rumors.

Rumors in South Korea: Kwang-Ju, 1980. Are any of our readers familiar with the South Korean news coverage just after the Kwang-Ju Massacre (just like Tiananmen Square, just 9 years earlier with a few less murders)? Great moments in journalism. South Korean Govt statements and news sources at the time had nothing to say.

The Kwang-Ju Massacre did not officially exist. So how did South Koreans find out about it if it didn't officially exist? Probably the same way they ultimately found out about the possibly 100,000 or so executions in 1950.


The point of the post was to question just how effective the scientific method alone is when looking for "an invisible hand" behind events such as these.

Notice how the veil of secrecy can hide American foreknowledge and passive approval of the group executions of possibly 100,000 unarmed political prisoners for a very long time.

Think of all the people who must have been "in on it". And yet it happened.

 

[pomeroo]

Pomeroo old chap, one of the benefits of having Apollo20 around was that he could help share the burden of changing your science nappy.


Consciousness - light - about 911 - beyond what was seen on TV that day - is emerging because of the opposing forces - the opposing processes - the opposing spirals - of the Official Story versus the Truth Movement.

Surely you have learned about - become conscious of - had illuminated - most of what you know about 911 through your opposition, in your case, to the Truth Movement. The same is true for everyone. I suspect Ryan would agree with that.


Consciousness emerges from opposition. (Indeed, that is the magnificence of debate.)

Consciousness comes from pain (in the asses).


I find it rather sorry that a TV talk show host such as yourself does not understand such a basic dimension of being human.

Max Photon
Mr. Bright


P.S. Your baby picture is pretty cute.

Uh, what we saw on television has turned to have been completely accurate. By exposing the lies of the fantasy movement, serious researchers have struck a small blow for reason, but there's a problem. The public is largely indifferent to truth and distrusts reason. What are the cynical demagogues who profit from the jihadist attacks, e.g. Griffin and Gage, if not a combination of snake oil peddlers and lynch mob ringleaders?

Among the many words you don't understand, "consciousness" ranks high. No, it does not "emerge from opposition." I think you might be using "consciousness" in your trademark clumsy manner, as a synonym for "understanding."

 

[T.A.M.]

you know what, I think the believers of the 9/11 CTs are so sparse, so few theses days, that they really do not deserve to be called a "movement". I think from now on, I will try to cease from referring to them incorrectly as a movement.

What will i call this bunch of rag tag losers instead?

TAM

 

[Max Photon]

you know what, I think the believers of the 9/11 CTs are so sparse, so few theses days, that they really do not deserve to be called a "movement". I think from now on, I will try to cease from referring to them incorrectly as a movement.

What will i call this bunch of rag tag losers instead?

TAM

Spoken like a true healer.

 

[gumboot]

you know what, I think the believers of the 9/11 CTs are so sparse, so few theses days, that they really do not deserve to be called a "movement". I think from now on, I will try to cease from referring to them incorrectly as a movement.

What will i call this bunch of rag tag losers instead?

TAM

How about "rag tag losers"?

 

[Major_Tom]

Uh, what we saw on television has turned to have been completely accurate.

Captures the essence of a confinement to what was referred to as "level one" perception, or consciousness. That which is literally shown to one is all that exists.

Believing in the puppet show.


Pomeroo ponders human consciousness:

Among the many words you don't understand, "consciousness" ranks high. No, it does not "emerge from opposition." I think you might be using "consciousness" in your trademark clumsy manner, as a synonym for "understanding."

It would be facinating to know who you would consider an authoritative voice on such a question.

By exposing the lies of the fantasy movement, serious researchers have struck a small blow for reason

Wasn't A20 one of your serious researchers? When he expressed independent views his person was verbally attacked. Nobody has been able to address his posts criticizing NIST's application of the "scientific method".

You attack his person instead, possibly assuming that readers wouldn't notice that you are unable to address his criticism.

The latent level of hatred and hostility contained within the one-line insults in this thread is revealing.

 

[funk de fino]

Thanks Gumboot.

It is generally assumed within this forum that the following quote is true.



The quote uses the most popular key phases:

NIST staff selected steel of interest
free reign to select as much steel as they wanted
collected sufficient steel for their purposes


The recurring theme:


Free to choose
Selected all they needed
Had sufficient samples
unhindered in movement
experts
unhindered access



As I mentioned before, they claim to have "recovered" only parts of 4 of over 300 core columns from the regions of interest, the fire affected and collapse initiation regions, less than 1%.

They then claim that the samples were so few that they couldn't give an indication as to whether the computerized fire similation yielded correct values.

They couldn't verify damage estimates of the core columns to the aircraft strikes because they only had parts of 4 samples (average 2 samples per tower).

They couldn't even verify how hot it was inside the core because they didn't have enough samples.

That they could categorically identify the location of. You seem to be forgetting this.

They had tonnes of steel but they only considered steel they could absolutely identify the location of as built. There was not much of this from the relevant areas.

Think about it a bit. Why would they do this?

 

[funk de fino]

The article linked below is a good example of the crude but effective model involving 2 levels of actions and decision making, one level remaining secret from the other.

yet no proof?

There is evidence to suggest that 100,000 people were secretly executed by the South Korean military during the start of the Korean War with the US Govt documenting and photographing some of the "turkey shoots".

yet no proof?

It is rather laborious to murder 100,000 people with small arms. Hard to keep secret. But it apparently it can be done.

Its not a secret

How can one prove the existence of "an invisible hand" secretly operating behind an action.

Do you think if there had been internet and satellite cable TV in every household it would have made a difference to the reporting of this war compared to today?

Physical science and scientists can analyze only the specimens and data they have.

And?

 

[jhunter1163]

Dr. Greening is poster "NeuFonze" at Physorg.

I regret his banning, though I don't disagree with it. He raised the level of debate here considerably. He was an outstanding devil's advocate for the official story.

As someone else said (and I am paraphrasing), he was someone who desperately WANTED to be a Truther, but his scientific training kept getting in the way.

 

[gumboot]

Not to mention the testimony of a PAPD Sgt. named Robert Vargas who survived IN THE CONCOURSE OF THE SOUTH TOWER DURING THE COLLAPSE. I really do not nor will I ever understand the sheer idiocy of the inhuman scum that is called the truth movement.

Quite true. I didn't mention eyewitness testimony because it isn't empirical evidence, but it's certainly valid as well.

I think a key point is not just that NIST had all of this information, but that it all said the same thing. If the radio transcripts, eye witness reports, vidoes, photographs and debris all said different things, NIST probably would have to invest much more effort into recreating the event to work out what happened. But all of this information is more or less in agreement about what happened.

Conspiracy theorists find conflicts (or what they perceive as conflicts), sure, but they're anomalies, it's not a substantial rift between large bodies of evidence.

If 99 people say one thing and 1 person says something else, that's an anomaly, not a smoking gun. If 70 people say one thing and 30 say something else that's a significant rift, and further investigation is warranted.

(Obviously the exact portion of conflict data require to warrant serious investigation would vary greatly depending on the nature of the specific circumstances - a single verified video of a high explosive explosion in the basement of the towers immediately before collapse would in its own right, warrant serious investigation, for example).

 

[gumboot]

Notice how the veil of secrecy can hide American foreknowledge and passive approval of the group executions of possibly 100,000 unarmed political prisoners for a very long time.

In the Middle Ages a local Lord could wipe out an entire village and hide the fact from another village a fifty miles away on the other side of his territories. That's hardly useful for looking at 9/11.

Secrecy is a combination of several factors:
1) How well you can control those involved
2) How easily the population can communicate
3) How easily you can control the populations communication

A Medieval lord has very strong control of those involved - the victims are all dead (you make sure of it) and the perpetrators are all his own men, oath sworn to do as he bids. If they revoke that they're as good as dead because even if they escape they'll be a fugitive, belonging to no lord, with no home.

It's very hard for the population to communicate - the majority can't read or write and they have no easy methods of long distance communication. If they travel too far from their home they'll find people who speak a dialect so different to them they can't understand each other.

The lord can also exert extreme control on how the population communicates. They own the roads. They can pretty much kill anyone that is disobedient, and if anyone tries to run they can easily track them down.

In contrast to facilitate a 9/11 inside job scenario theorists first have to invent alternative even more vast conspiracies to give these conspirators powers they don't actually have.

Those that serve the government are not blind robots. The most devout ones are serving an ideal that's above government - nationalism, patriotism, or "freedom". Democratic governments have very little way to exert effective control over those involved in such an event. And the bigger the conspiracy the harder it is to control everyone.

People can communicate with each other exceedingly easily. In the space of a few moments I'm communicating with everyone who has internet access. I can talk in real time to virtually anyone on the planet. Most people are literate, and many are literate in multiple languages. For those that aren't there's automatic translators.

We have internet, satellite TV, telephones, loudspeakers, radio...

And despite the nutjobs, the government, and any "inside job" conspiracy group has virtually zero control over that communication. There's so many ways, and they're so easy, that it's simply not possible to control them.

Every person in the world has hundreds, thousands, of communication threads linking them to the rest of the world.

That's why the secret 9/11 conspiracy is impossible.

As for your mid 20th Century South Korean massacre, well that fits somewhere in between today's global community and the Medieval village. And the degree of possible secrecy fits neatly in between as well.

 

[Major_Tom]

That they could categorically identify the location of. You seem to be forgetting this.

They had tonnes of steel but they only considered steel they could absolutely identify the location of as built. There was not much of this from the relevant areas.

Of 329 core column segments from the fire affected and collapse initiation regions, NIST had the capacity to identify only 4 of these?

Just a little reality check: Funk, does that claim really make sense to you?

Do you believe this claim? From what part of the NIST report did you get this info, NCSTAR 1-3c?

Does it really make sense to you that only 4 of 329 36 foot pieces of steel core column were recoverable and identifiable from the central failure regions and key points of interest?



Gumboot, thanks for the reply. The point of the Korean examples is that the American public was kept in the dark, not the Koreans. Happens all the time.

Every person in the world has hundreds, thousands, of communication threads linking them to the rest of the world.

That's why the secret 9/11 conspiracy is impossible.

This is a popular opinion at JREF. But it doesn't only apply to 9-11. You are saying that any large scale operation of this magnitude carried out by an undetected "invisible hand" is impossible.

You are saying that certain moneyed elite with the highest govt connections in either the US, Russia or Israel do not have the capacity to stage such an attack?

You are claiming that we are safe from such a staged attack because of our capacity to move information rapidly.

Nobody can fool our well-informed public on such a scale. Isn't this your argument?

It is just not possible in today's world?