Science vs Teleology: Which lens is best for viewing 911?

[beachnut]

... the real conspiracy brought to you by Bush, Blair and co! ...

PhD brings politics to bear. Does this mean Clinton knew it too? How many people were in this cover up? I love the fact your ideas use a technique from the OP

Who did not suspect UBL, after the second impact? If a pilot in the USAF can figure that out, who can't? Who was the choice suspect of PhDs that morning after the second impact? Alas, I thought he bought his own planes! But then he is just a petty terrorists who loves to kill Americans, why buy your own plane when you can kill even more Americans. Cheap, low down murderer, UBL. Does this mean you are supporting UBL, by making up false ideas?

 

[Myriad]

You're aware, however, that using this to argue that being certain and decisive must be a result of ambiguity-reducing deception (and therefore also wrong) is flawed reasoning, a logical fallacy called affirming the consequent.

Respectfully,
Myriad

See Myriad, this is a perfect, typical example of your willful attempt to muddle.

I did not argue that being certain and decisive MUST be a result of ambiguity-reducing deception.

I will apologize for willful muddling, as soon as you point out exactly were I accused you of arguing that being certain and decisive MUST be a result of ambiguity-reducing deception.

I believe my post merely asserted your awareness of the existence of a certain logical fallacy.

Just as yours merely "suggested" a possibility that yodaluver's certainty means he's been duped by MILDEC.

Myriad, you are obviously a smart guy and you usually put a lot of time and thoughtful effort into responding to me. Why alway needlessly ruin it? It would actually infuse some "respect" into your "Respectfully, Myriad."

I'm sorry if my disagreeing with you ruins "it" (ruins what exactly?). Respect does not compel agreement (nor vice versa).

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[1337m4n]

Reluctant? You bit the first chance you got. What the hell does Silverstein's last name have to do with his garbled interview?

Wonder instead how his "garbled interview" proves that he was "lying through his dentures". In fact, it does not. So obviously you have something against Silverstein.



I always thought that was an interesting choice of words; "lying through his dentures". I guess Ibis is prejudiced not only against Jews but also against senior citizens. You're on a roll, Red!

In any case, I must agree with Pomeroo; if the man wasn't Jewish there wouldn't be any discussions of Building 7 within the Troof Movement.

 

[pomeroo]

Pomeroo, seriously, you seem angry on this thread.....even more so than usual.

How about a good stiff walk?

That often does wonders.

Your concerned friend,

M. C. Photon, M.D.

Unsurprisingly, your diagnostic skills are on a par with your scientific ones. I guess my girlfriend misinterpreted my laughing out loud. Little did she realize how truly angry I am.

 

[pomeroo]

Pomeroo:

Well, Pomeroo, let’s try to answer your question… I think the FBI fingered Osama bin Laden for 9/11 almost immediately, didn’t they?

Almost everybody fingered Osama immediately. I know I did. When a person declares war on the U.S. in 1996 and attacks American interests continually, he tends to arouse suspicion.

And Bush, like the all-American cowboy he is, said he would hunt OBL down and “bring him to justice.” Well, it didn’t happen did it! And I would postulate it was never intended to happen for the following reasons: We all know that al Qaeda was an American creation, and for proof of this assertion may I suggest that you read the book “Dollars for Terror” by Richard Labeviere which documents the role of the US in the rise of fundamentalist Islam.

I think reading serious books by people who know something about the Middle East is preferable to wasting time on uninformed crackpots. But, to each his own. We don't know that al Qaeda is an American creation because it is untrue. How many times must this silly canard be laid to rest? Osama refused cooperation with American intelligence in Afghanistan. The Afghani mujahideen took money from the CIA. Osama's group of foreign fighters received their funding from Saudi sources. This is ancient history, Frank.

We all know that OBL was the CIA’s “Man in Kandahar” who was leading the “holy war” against the Red Army in Afghanistan in the early 1980s.

Wrong.

But with the evacuation of Russian troops from Afghanistan in 1989, the strange alliance between the “Afghans” and the CIA supposedly came to an abrupt end. It therefore came as a great embarrassment to the US government that in 1998 the FBI had clearly established links between the CIA and OBL’s al Qaeda networks in connection with the Nairobi and Dar es Salaam bombings. And who, by the year 2000, was the most active intelligence operative inside al Qaeda - a confidant of OBL and Ayman al-Zawahiri no less - who simultaneously supplied intelligence to the DIA and the Able Danger unit? None other than Ali Mohamed ….. And who ordered 2.5 terabytes of data gathered by the Able Danger operation to be destroyed in April 2000? The CIA of course! So Pomeroo, it is pretty-well proven that the US Justice Department knew enough about the plans for 9/11 to stop it dead in its tracks well before 2001 – but didn’t! So here's the real conspiracy brought to you by Bush, Blair and co!

You parrot this nonsensical rubbish as if it could possibly be true. Very sad.

And, let’s face it Pomeroo, Islamaphobia in the wake of 9/11 is a creation of the Western Media (read propaganda peddlers) who are embedded with the US/UK Military-Industrial-Government complex; a brainwashing on a par with the Reds-Under-the-Beds fear-mongering of the 1950s.

I don't believe a word of this twaddle. In the wake of a dastardly attack that killed three thousand civilians, there were very few reprisals against Muslims in the U.S. Bush delivered a plea for restraint that was largely heeded. Your claim that "Western media" fomented Islamophobia is completely false.

The "war on terror' is really the "War on Terra", meaning a war on earth, a world war; a perpetual war for a perpetual peace that we will never live to see..... a scenario straight out of 1984 designed to keep us in a permanent state of fear.

Funny that the jihadists are so clear about their aims and muddle-headed Westerners simply refuse to hear what they're saying. The name Sayyid Qutb means nothing to you, but our enemies have read him closely and understand his message.

So, Pomeroo, the REAL Conspiracy is simply an attempt by the powers that be to distort the truth and conceal the relationship that flourished between the fabricated Islamic enemy –al Qaeda - and its creators within the US – the CIA. So ultimately it is not in the best interests of Bush et al. to locate OBL and “bring him to justice” now is it… OBL has too many stories to tell, as does the FBI informant Ali Mohamed.

Fantastic nonsense, unworthy of an educated man.

 

[Max Photon]

Max goes to peaces

Myriad,

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted you. What do you say we have a fresh start, and just take it from there?

Peace,

Max

 

[pomeroo]

Well I guess that rules out Pomeroo.

Uh, yes, it does rule me out. But it doesn't rule you out.


Poor Maxie, we keep reminding him to think first. There are those who contend that he enjoys shooting himself in the foot. The act, however, requires him to remove it from his mouth, which is a big job.

 

[Apollo20]

Pomeroo:

Seek ye first the political kingdom and all things shall be added unto you..............

Now who said that?

 

[pomeroo]

Thank you. Ron could demand that I swear the sun rises in the east and I'd let him hold his breath.

Ron, there is no pledge that you demand I swear to that I will accept. I honestly don't care what you think I hate and don't hate at this point. Although I don't put people on ignore, there are posters whos replies I no longer take seriously due to obnoxious behavior. I find yours among the most odious.

Fabulous stuff! A guy who commits to nothing, who says nothing whatever of substance, who prances around endlessly parsing what "is" is, and now he takes his very first principled stand. The principle, it turns out, is refusing to condemn the vicious Jew-haters in his mindless movement.
It's amazing that the behavior of conspiracy liars can still prove a source of amazement for me.

 

[pomeroo]

Pomeroo:

Seek ye first the political kingdom and all things shall be added unto you..............

Now who said that?

I happen to recognize that Nkrumah (I haven't checked the spelling) quote from a great book by George Aiyitty, Africa Betrayed. You'll have to spell out the relevance for me as I am a bear of very small brain.

 

[Apollo20]

Pomeroo:

In reference to your RedIbis comment:

Now this is a totally inexcusable post and totally off-topic.

What has become of you?

What distorted lens are you looking through?

What is your on-topic point?

 

[Apollo20]

Pomeroo:

Yes, well spotted it is indeed a quote from Dr. Kwame Nkrumah about what is important in analyzing world events; about where we should put our efforts; about how we should try to make a difference, and how we should not be politically naive....

So Pomeroo, this "dumb scientist" is not unaware of your politically colored belief system, where it comes from, and where it's going .....

 

[Max Photon]

These? Oh, I got 'em cheap at Lens Crafters

Almost everybody fingered Osama immediately. I know I did. When a person declares war on the U.S. in 1996 and attacks American interests continually, he tends to arouse suspicion.

Pomeroo, you are confusing. Let me get this straight....

Bin Laden "attacks American interests continually" - I presume because he "hates America's freedoms."

America's freedoms are largely defined by the US Constitution.

But to "protect Americans from someone who hates their freedom," the neoconservatives have undermined many of the checks and balances and protections of the Constitution.

And now that the President can arbitrarily label any person an enemy combatant, habeas corpus has been put to death.

The neocons have done infinitely more damage to American's freedoms than Al Qaeda has or ever will. (It's okay for you to be suspicious about Al Qaeda. Isn't it reasonable then for people to be suspicious about the neocons?)

Orders of magnitude more have died in Iraq and Afghanistan than in 911 (yet you seem to only express grief and outrage for the few thousand Americans killed.)

Men and women of the US Armed Services swear to defend the US Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Those who become US citizens swear to defend the US Constitution against all enemies, foreign or domestic.

Pomeroo, you're an American. I presume defending the US Constitution is your top priority too. Perhaps you ought to focus less on Jew-haters, and more on US. Constitution-haters.....even if they are Jewish.


Anyway Pomeroo, here is my question related to the OP:

What lens do you use to view 9/11?


ETA: Apollo20 beat me to the question.

 

[RedIbis]

I guess Ibis is prejudiced not only against Jews but also against senior citizens. You're on a roll, Red!

.

Prove it.

ETA: The more I think about it, the more stupid this becomes. I've criticized Giuliani. Does that make me anti-Italian? I've criticzed General Myers. Does that make me anti-Generals?

Playing the race card is a sure sign of desperation and losing the debate.

 

[1337m4n]

Prove it.

Will do. Right after you prove that Silverstein was "lying through his dentures".

The more I think about it, the more stupid this becomes. I've criticized Giuliani. Does that make me anti-Italian? I've criticzed General Myers. Does that make me anti-Generals?

Of course not! You have presented reasons for your criticism of these men. You have not done the same with Silverstein: it is as if you woke up one morning and just up and decided that he was "lying through his dentures". You have been repeatedly asked to explain yourself, and you have repeatedly failed to do so. One cannot be blamed for wondering just what it is that you have against this man.

Playing the race card is a sure sign of desperation and losing the debate.

What "debate"? You have made a claim about Silverstein and you refuse to back it up with evidence. There is no "debate". There is only you dancing and people like me laughing at you.

 

[LashL]

Prove it.

That's pretty funny coming from you, RedIbis.

You have repeatedly accused Larry Silverstein of "lying through his dentures", but you have refused to even say what it is that you allege him to be "lying" about, and you have failed spectacularly to substantiate your accusations. In fact, you ran away with your tail between your legs on those threads when you could not substantiate your accusations.

You also repeatedly accused General Myers of criminal negligence and actual complicity in the terrorist attacks of 9/11, but you have refused to say what it is that you allege constitutes criminal negligence or complicity on his part, and you have failed spectacularly to substantiate your accusations against him. In fact, you ran away with your tail between your legs on those threads, too, when you could not substantiate your accusations.

And yet, here you are demanding that Pomeroo "prove it" when he suggests that you might just have an agenda of your own while you repeatedly make egregious, unsubstantiated and entirely unsupported accusations of serious criminal behaviour against others.

My irony meter has exploded.

 

[Max Photon]

Bird-hater

Prove it.

ETA: The more I think about it, the more stupid this becomes. I've criticized Giuliani. Does that make me anti-Italian? I've criticzed General Myers. Does that make me anti-Generals?

Playing the race card is a sure sign of desperation and losing the debate.

It's also an indicator of what lens the accuser is looking through.

Um, by the way, Red - (that's a communist name isn't it?) - just what are you insinuating with that big nose in your avatar?

 

[pomeroo]

Pomeroo:

Yes, well spotted it is indeed a quote from Dr. Kwame Nkrumah about what is important in analyzing world events; about where we should put our efforts; about how we should try to make a difference, and how we should not be politically naive....

So Pomeroo, this "dumb scientist" is not unaware of your politically colored belief system, where it comes from, and where it's going .....

Please, Frank, no self-deprecation. You are a brilliant man and an outstanding scientist. You have a dismaying tendency to swallow conspiratorial nonsense. Bobby Fischer was a genius and a vastly greater chess player than I could ever hope to be. He harbored, however, political views that were, quite simply, insane.

 

[1337m4n]

I created a new thread for us to continue the anti-Semitism discussion without derailing Max's thread: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3821317#post3821317

 

[pomeroo]

Pomeroo, you are confusing. Let me get this straight....

Bin Laden "attacks American interests continually" - I presume because he "hates America's freedoms."

It is fascinating to me that ignoramuses mock this phrase without ever realizing that it is essentially correct. Islam means, literally, submission--submission to the will of Allah. The western concept of political freedom is an affront to the order that has been ordained by God and revealed by his messenger. You make light of something that you refuse to take the trouble to understand. The jihadists who have read Sayyid Qutb very carefully are clear about their aims. You can't hear them because you won't listen.

America's freedoms are largely defined by the US Constitution.

But to "protect Americans from someone who hates their freedom," the neoconservatives have undermined many of the checks and balances and protections of the Constitution.

And now that the President can arbitrarily label any person an enemy combatant, habeas corpus has been put to death.

Nonsense. This tired refrain still awaits its poster child. Show us the ordinary American citizen who lost rights since 2001. Hint: there are none. Habeas corpus is alive and well, but the criminal justice system was not intended to protect stateless warriors who kill non-combatants.

The neocons have done infinitely more damage to American's freedoms than Al Qaeda has or ever will.

And I say that the neocons have inflicted no--zero--damage to America's freedoms. Remember, this is a tough argument for you to win as you've got absolutely nothing. But, then, you're used to that.

Orders of magnitude more have died in Iraq and Afghanistan than in 911 (yet you seem to only express grief and outrage for the few thousand Americans killed.)

The jihadist attacks of 9/11/01 awakened many Americans to a harsh new world: there are resourceful, well-trained, well-financed foes who are determined to inflict damage on our homeland and suffering on our people. The efforts of agenda-driven fantasists to persuade us that these enemies don't exist will headlong into reality. How many people must die before we learn the lesson of 9/11? We could be attacked a dozen times and you would always be able to fabricate an imaginary villain. Most of us can't afford to live in a dream.

Men and women of the US Armed Services swear to defend the US Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Those who become US citizens swear to defend the US Constitution against all enemies, foreign or domestic.

Pomeroo, you're an American. I presume defending the US Constitution is your top priority too. Perhaps you ought to focus less on Jew-haters, and more on US. Constitution-haters.....even if they are Jewish.

Your dreaded neocons venerate the Constitution far more than you do. The people who fill my e-mailbox with incredibly vicious anti-Semitic drivel are on your side. They are very real, unfortunately.

Anyway Pomeroo, here is my question related to the OP:

What lens do you use to view 9/11?

I use the words of the actors themselves. You are interested in inventing irrational myths to explain events. I want to know the real causes.

An undergraduate attending a lecture on Descartes delivered by Alfred North Whitehead became perturbed. At the conclusion, he was unable to contain himself and rushed up to the eminent thinker. "Professor," he demanded, "You must tell me: Do I really exist?"

Whitehead replied, "Who wants to know?"

ETA: Apollo20 beat me to the question.