Science vs Teleology: Which lens is best for viewing 911?
- Thread starter Max Photon
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Wait! I'm starting to get it. You're saying that you can make it appear as though a building collapse was caused by a plane crashing into it if you actually crash a plane into a building. It's so direct--almost crude--and yet, chillingly effective.
You're aware, however, that using this to argue that being certain and decisive must be a result of ambiguity-reducing deception (and therefore also wrong) is flawed reasoning, a logical fallacy called affirming the consequent.
Respectfully,
Myriad
boloboffin
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NIST's primary purpose in collecting the steel that they did was to ensure that it was built to specification. The amount that they collected was more than adequate for those purposes. I'm quite sure that Dr. Greening the scientist understands this. However, Frank the CT woo likes to come out and play every once in a while.
An interesting idea. I tend to think of investigators as smart people, though, who are more likely to think outside the box than the Average Joe. I don't know any, save one, who I knew as a kid, and he was quite average. Nevertheless, I would think most FBI investigators would be smarter than average. Probably I got this idea from TV shows and Hollywood movies.
Most investigators would be members of some sort of hierarchical organization, such as the FBI. Work organizations have what I'll call behavioral feedbacks that tend to suppress behavior at odds with the goals that individuals sitting at the top of the pyramid set for the group. So, systemic bias introduced into such an organization may have as it's goal the less obvious task of helping to suppress behavior frowned upon by individuals at the top, partly by creating a climate, or air of inevitability, which can cause organizational members which have doubts about the Al Quaeda story to suppress them. In other words, to reinforce feedback mechanisms that already exist.
Frankly, though, from what I've read, and heard, looking more closely into the (Al-Quaeda) 911 hijackers should be quite revealing. I wish more attention had gone into investigating them. Consider, e.g., a Wayne Madsen report:
However, if the government spin is that it was just Al-Quaeda, the systemic bias will be that it was just Al-Quaeda.
Don't you think it's strange that no alerts were ever put out to the public, to come forth with any knowledge that they may have about the hijackers? I remember such a request was made by the authorities re the Son of Sam serial murderer. Why not the 911 19? Not important enough? Ha! If 911 was in inside job, of course, there's very little that an expanded investigation would tell government conspirators that it didn't already know!
Had such requests been made, I think it likely that citizens would have come forth with interesting bits of knowledge. I mean, if the Wayne Madsen report is true, you don't think that the only people who would have seen Mohammed Atta in Fort Lee are FBI, CIA, and Israelis, do you? Mohammed Atta was no more invisible in New Jersey than he was in Florida or Germany. Knowledge gleaned from ordinary citizens could have led to the hijackers being shown to be patsies. That's assuming an honest investigation, of course.
My sig at the now defunct Randi Rhodes forum (the old one) read "We don't need no stinkin' thought police."
Rabid thought police are that much worse!
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Before you demand of Red Ibis that he satisfy your criteria for purity of thought, shouldn't you first prove your non-America-hating bona fides?
That could be done by 1) you wearing an American flag lapel pin 2) getting an American flag tattoo for beach trips (and nudist colonies, if you're into that sort of thing) and 3) having somebody follow you around with a video cam, with output to be streamed from the internet.
If Obama was intimidated into wearing a flag lapel pin, I don't see why we should expect anything less of you. Or do you think you're better than him? Maybe you hate African-Americans, too?
Also, when are you going to stop beating up your wife? I've heard rumours.....
RedIbis
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Thank you. Ron could demand that I swear the sun rises in the east and I'd let him hold his breath.
Ron, there is no pledge that you demand I swear to that I will accept. I honestly don't care what you think I hate and don't hate at this point. Although I don't put people on ignore, there are posters whos replies I no longer take seriously due to obnoxious behavior. I find yours among the most odious.
Do you have a link handy for this document? I searched for "US Armed Service Joint Publication", and the first hit mentioned "deception" exactly once. There is no exact hit, except this thread.
boloboffin:
Sorry to disillusion you but I think the amount of WTC steel subjected to metallurgical examination by NIST was totally inadequate. I am saying this because it looks like the sample availability was the problem. Thus the science lens was murky on that one!
Pomeroo:
I wish you would stay on topic, but since you appear to be fixated on Silverstein's ethnicity as a factor in "truther" thinking, I have to ask how you feel about Netanyahu saying that 9/11 was "good" ..... for Israel ....
Do you think Netanyahu was being anti-American when he said this?
What if an American politician said that a 9/11-type attack on Israel would be "good" for the US.... would that be ok by you?
Max:
If not teleology then:
preconception
self-fulfilling prophecy
making the facts fit the theory
thinking inside the box
not seeing the man behind the curtain
a Commission on a mission to find proof by omission
Sorry to disillusion you but I think the amount of WTC steel subjected to metallurgical examination by NIST was totally inadequate. I am saying this because it looks like the sample availability was the problem. Thus the science lens was murky on that one!
Pomeroo:
I wish you would stay on topic, but since you appear to be fixated on Silverstein's ethnicity as a factor in "truther" thinking, I have to ask how you feel about Netanyahu saying that 9/11 was "good" ..... for Israel ....
Do you think Netanyahu was being anti-American when he said this?
What if an American politician said that a 9/11-type attack on Israel would be "good" for the US.... would that be ok by you?
Max:
If not teleology then:
preconception
self-fulfilling prophecy
making the facts fit the theory
thinking inside the box
not seeing the man behind the curtain
a Commission on a mission to find proof by omission
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RedIbis
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Reluctant? You bit the first chance you got. What the hell does Silverstein's last name have to do with his garbled interview?
Max Photon
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Intelligent Orthogonal Design
See Myriad, this is a perfect, typical example of your willful attempt to muddle.
I did not argue that being certain and decisive MUST be a result of ambiguity-reducing deception.
Yodaluver28 implied that seconds after the second crash he was certain and decisive, and implied everyone else was too. I simply brought up ambiguity-reducing deception to SUGGEST that just because he felt he was right does not mean he was right.
Myriad, you are obviously a smart guy and you usually put a lot of time and thoughtful effort into responding to me. Why alway needlessly ruin it? It would actually infuse some "respect" into your "Respectfully, Myriad."
Respectfully,
Max
See Myriad, this is a perfect, typical example of your willful attempt to muddle.
I did not argue that being certain and decisive MUST be a result of ambiguity-reducing deception.
Yodaluver28 implied that seconds after the second crash he was certain and decisive, and implied everyone else was too. I simply brought up ambiguity-reducing deception to SUGGEST that just because he felt he was right does not mean he was right.
Myriad, you are obviously a smart guy and you usually put a lot of time and thoughtful effort into responding to me. Why alway needlessly ruin it? It would actually infuse some "respect" into your "Respectfully, Myriad."
Respectfully,
Max
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Excellent points. RedIbis's conspicuous unwillingness to dispose of my insinuation that his baseless slander of an innocent man might be a manifestation of anti-Semitism is not the issue here. We should talk about me. Hey, the line about beating my wife was a good one. Did you think of that on your own, or did you hear it somewhere?
Oh, I almost forgot: RedIbis ran away again. Are we permitted to wonder about that?
You use language imprecisely sometimes. I'm glad your science is more fastidious. To the extent that some Americans were awakened from a decades-long slumber to the reality of the jihadist threat, the 9/11 attacks were "good" for Israel. Netanyahu was being candid, which is not advisable in politics.
If an American politician said that a terrorist attack on Israel was "good" for the U.S., his words would be twisted out of recognition by the left media. If the moralizers ever shut up long enough for us to figure out what he was getting at, we'd probably discover that he was right.
Frank, are you persuaded that the FBI solved the case? Did the agency fabricate evidence on a massive scale to implicate those poor jihadists?
Max Photon
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Teleology - Now Filtered
Apollo20, actually, they didn't even take off the lens cap.
No. Pomeroo has shown his true color. He's self-lathering.
Apollo20, your list is very interesting. Everything you list is a filter. (Metamars, as you know, the Herman/Chomsky Propaganda Model is basically a collection of filters.)
So perhaps the question is really about what type of filters were placed in front of the scientific lens to produce the 911 simulacra.
Note that a filter can be described as a higher-order term - a term that introduces distortion.
R.Mackey, surely you will agree control can be had using filters.
Apollo20, actually, they didn't even take off the lens cap.
Apollo20 said:
No. Pomeroo has shown his true color. He's self-lathering.
Apollo20 said:
Apollo20, your list is very interesting. Everything you list is a filter. (Metamars, as you know, the Herman/Chomsky Propaganda Model is basically a collection of filters.)
So perhaps the question is really about what type of filters were placed in front of the scientific lens to produce the 911 simulacra.
Note that a filter can be described as a higher-order term - a term that introduces distortion.
R.Mackey, surely you will agree control can be had using filters.
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Max Photon
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Max Photon
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Gimme a shot of Rohnnie Walker...Red Label
Pomeroo, seriously, you seem angry on this thread.....even more so than usual.
How about a good stiff walk?
That often does wonders.
Your concerned friend,
M. C. Photon, M.D.
Pomeroo, seriously, you seem angry on this thread.....even more so than usual.
How about a good stiff walk?
That often does wonders.
Your concerned friend,
M. C. Photon, M.D.
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The real 9/11 conspiracy....
Pomeroo:
Well, Pomeroo, let’s try to answer your question… I think the FBI fingered Osama bin Laden for 9/11 almost immediately, didn’t they? And Bush, like the all-American cowboy he is, said he would hunt OBL down and “bring him to justice.” Well, it didn’t happen did it! And I would postulate it was never intended to happen for the following reasons: We all know that al Qaeda was an American creation, and for proof of this assertion may I suggest that you read the book “Dollars for Terror” by Richard Labeviere which documents the role of the US in the rise of fundamentalist Islam. We all know that OBL was the CIA’s “Man in Kandahar” who was leading the “holy war” against the Red Army in Afghanistan in the early 1980s. But with the evacuation of Russian troops from Afghanistan in 1989, the strange alliance between the “Afghans” and the CIA supposedly came to an abrupt end. It therefore came as a great embarrassment to the US government that in 1998 the FBI had clearly established links between the CIA and OBL’s al Qaeda networks in connection with the Nairobi and Dar es Salaam bombings. And who, by the year 2000, was the most active intelligence operative inside al Qaeda - a confidant of OBL and Ayman al-Zawahiri no less - who simultaneously supplied intelligence to the DIA and the Able Danger unit? None other than Ali Mohamed ….. And who ordered 2.5 terabytes of data gathered by the Able Danger operation to be destroyed in April 2000? The CIA of course! So Pomeroo, it is pretty-well proven that the US Justice Department knew enough about the plans for 9/11 to stop it dead in its tracks well before 2001 – but didn’t! So here's the real conspiracy brought to you by Bush, Blair and co!
And, let’s face it Pomeroo, Islamaphobia in the wake of 9/11 is a creation of the Western Media (read propaganda peddlers) who are embedded with the US/UK Military-Industrial-Government complex; a brainwashing on a par with the Reds-Under-the-Beds fear-mongering of the 1950s. The "war on terror' is really the "War on Terra", meaning a war on earth, a world war; a perpetual war for a perpetual peace that we will never live to see..... a scenario straight out of 1984 designed to keep us in a permanent state of fear.
So, Pomeroo, the REAL Conspiracy is simply an attempt by the powers that be to distort the truth and conceal the relationship that flourished between the fabricated Islamic enemy –al Qaeda - and its creators within the US – the CIA. So ultimately it is not in the best interests of Bush et al. to locate OBL and “bring him to justice” now is it… OBL has too many stories to tell, as does the FBI informant Ali Mohamed.
Pomeroo:
Well, Pomeroo, let’s try to answer your question… I think the FBI fingered Osama bin Laden for 9/11 almost immediately, didn’t they? And Bush, like the all-American cowboy he is, said he would hunt OBL down and “bring him to justice.” Well, it didn’t happen did it! And I would postulate it was never intended to happen for the following reasons: We all know that al Qaeda was an American creation, and for proof of this assertion may I suggest that you read the book “Dollars for Terror” by Richard Labeviere which documents the role of the US in the rise of fundamentalist Islam. We all know that OBL was the CIA’s “Man in Kandahar” who was leading the “holy war” against the Red Army in Afghanistan in the early 1980s. But with the evacuation of Russian troops from Afghanistan in 1989, the strange alliance between the “Afghans” and the CIA supposedly came to an abrupt end. It therefore came as a great embarrassment to the US government that in 1998 the FBI had clearly established links between the CIA and OBL’s al Qaeda networks in connection with the Nairobi and Dar es Salaam bombings. And who, by the year 2000, was the most active intelligence operative inside al Qaeda - a confidant of OBL and Ayman al-Zawahiri no less - who simultaneously supplied intelligence to the DIA and the Able Danger unit? None other than Ali Mohamed ….. And who ordered 2.5 terabytes of data gathered by the Able Danger operation to be destroyed in April 2000? The CIA of course! So Pomeroo, it is pretty-well proven that the US Justice Department knew enough about the plans for 9/11 to stop it dead in its tracks well before 2001 – but didn’t! So here's the real conspiracy brought to you by Bush, Blair and co!
And, let’s face it Pomeroo, Islamaphobia in the wake of 9/11 is a creation of the Western Media (read propaganda peddlers) who are embedded with the US/UK Military-Industrial-Government complex; a brainwashing on a par with the Reds-Under-the-Beds fear-mongering of the 1950s. The "war on terror' is really the "War on Terra", meaning a war on earth, a world war; a perpetual war for a perpetual peace that we will never live to see..... a scenario straight out of 1984 designed to keep us in a permanent state of fear.
So, Pomeroo, the REAL Conspiracy is simply an attempt by the powers that be to distort the truth and conceal the relationship that flourished between the fabricated Islamic enemy –al Qaeda - and its creators within the US – the CIA. So ultimately it is not in the best interests of Bush et al. to locate OBL and “bring him to justice” now is it… OBL has too many stories to tell, as does the FBI informant Ali Mohamed.
Max asks: If not teleology, then ________?
Apollo suggests....
You answer your own question well when you say:
Can we find a word capturing the meaning above?
A primary way to control an investigator is to limit the actial physical evidence available to them.
Garbage in, garbage out.
Insufficient core and perimeter column sections from the collapse initiation zones guarantee uncertain conclusions.
NIST can never compare the results of their computerized fire simulations to an actual representative collection of columns from the fire affected regions because, as they admit, an insufficient number of samples were gathered. No reality check.
The scientific method is manipulated before physical samples even arrive to the investigative body.
Apollo suggests....
You answer your own question well when you say:
Can we find a word capturing the meaning above?
A primary way to control an investigator is to limit the actial physical evidence available to them.
Garbage in, garbage out.
Insufficient core and perimeter column sections from the collapse initiation zones guarantee uncertain conclusions.
NIST can never compare the results of their computerized fire simulations to an actual representative collection of columns from the fire affected regions because, as they admit, an insufficient number of samples were gathered. No reality check.
The scientific method is manipulated before physical samples even arrive to the investigative body.