Science vs Teleology: Which lens is best for viewing 911?

No, what's pathetic is the myopia of the view that one needs PIX!!! of plane parts and bodies in order to prove the plane was there.

1) Thought experiment, Red. Let's say I can't produce any pictures of the "95%" claim - let's say there are none at all. Is the rest of Gravy's list not enough to prove the U93 crash?

2) Oh, and if the EVIL GOVERNMENT were behind this, why didn't they just fake some pictures of wreckage? Couldn't be too hard to do if they pulled off this impossibly complex conspiracy with barely a hitch, eh?
 
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John Blonn said:
No, what's pathetic is the myopia of the view that one needs PIX!!! of plane parts and bodies in order to prove the plane was there.

1) Thought experiment, Red. Let's say I can't produce any pictures of the "95%" claim - let's say there are none at all. Is the rest of Gravy's list not enough to prove the U93 crash?

2) Oh, and if the EVIL GOVERNMENT were behind this, why didn't they just fake some pictures of wreckage? Couldn't be too hard to do if they pulled off this impossibly complex conspiracy with barely a hitch, eh?
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Well I don't know if they faked pics, but the ones they did provide, certainly don't show any serial numbers.
 
RedIbis said:
No, it's not enough.
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Why?

What if they didn't take enough pictures of the scene to satisfy you? Why MUST you have images?

Do you believe that there were dead bodies in the rubble of the towers? Do you need pics of those? Or aren't the testimonies of fire fighters, rescue personnel, FBI, etc. etc. enough?
 
John Blonn said:
Why?

What if they didn't take enough pictures of the scene to satisfy you? Why MUST you have images?

Do you believe that there were dead bodies in the rubble of the towers? Do you need pics of those? Or aren't the testimonies of fire fighters, rescue personnel, FBI, etc. etc. enough?
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We're not talking about the towers, we're talking about Shanksville.
 
RedIbis said:
We're not talking about the towers, we're talking about Shanksville.
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You are quite talented at squirming.

Then answer my question. Why oh why are pictures the gold standard here? Do you not trust the testimony of rescue personnel, among others?
 
RedIbis said:
What's pathetic is the claim that 95% of Flight 93 was recovered and yet there is no photographic evidence of this large amount of wreckage.
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I am trying to make your suffering brief. I know that you have an almost infinite capacity for absorbing punishment, but why not spare yourself what promises to be another ferocious beating and tell us if the crash of United Flight 93 was handled differently from other crashes. After examining the debris for evidence of explosives, the FBI returned the debris to United. Now, I'll try it again: Are the FBI and United Airlines part of your imaginary conspiracy? Perhaps one and not the other?

The debris was returned to United: is there any reason to doubt this? Why?
 
RedIbis said:
Ron, you really need to focus. I don't know what the hell an Osama conundrum is.
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You've met the Osama Conundrum, the Graveyard of Conspiracy Liars, before. Permit me to refresh your memory by quoting one of my posts from earlier this evening:

All of your fellow liars have done very, very badly attempting to negotiate the shoals of the dreaded Osama Conundrum. I predict that you won't even try.

Either Osama's repeated explanations of his role in the attacks of 9/11/01 are genuine or he is being impersonated by an exact double, an asset of the Impossibly Vast Conspiracy. If you acknowledge the reality of his videos, your evil movement collapses. You MUST, therefore, argue against all evidence that the Osama the world sees isn't real.

Now, let's pretend you're correct--you aren't, of course, but we'll pretend.
In the fall of 2006, Bush and Cheney were staring at a massive defeat that would strip them of much of their power and pave the way for a Democratic takeover of the Presidency in 2008. In the face of this looming humiliation, they could have announced that the bogeyman, the nonexistent Osama, had at long last been killed. They could have, in other words, snatched victory from the jaws of defeat.

Curiously, they chose to do nothing and accepted a battering at the polls. Given that neither Bush nor Cheney will ever again run for public office, this was absolutely the last chance to play the Osama card. We all understand how obtuse and irrational you conspiracy liars are, but nobody--NOBODY!--will swallow the idea that Bush and Cheney preferred taking a beating that wrecked their second term.

So, how about it, fantasy guy? What is the solution to the Osama Conundrum?
 
pomeroo said:
You've met the Osama Conundrum, the Graveyard of Conspiracy Liars, before. Permit me to refresh your memory by quoting one of my posts from earlier this evening:

All of your fellow liars have done very, very badly attempting to negotiate the shoals of the dreaded Osama Conundrum. I predict that you won't even try.

Either Osama's repeated explanations of his role in the attacks of 9/11/01 are genuine or he is being impersonated by an exact double, an asset of the Impossibly Vast Conspiracy. If you acknowledge the reality of his videos, your evil movement collapses. You MUST, therefore, argue against all evidence that the Osama the world sees isn't real.

Now, let's pretend you're correct--you aren't, of course, but we'll pretend.
In the fall of 2006, Bush and Cheney were staring at a massive defeat that would strip them of much of their power and pave the way for a Democratic takeover of the Presidency in 2008. In the face of this looming humiliation, they could have announced that the bogeyman, the nonexistent Osama, had at long last been killed. They could have, in other words, snatched victory from the jaws of defeat.

Curiously, they chose to do nothing and accepted a battering at the polls. Given that neither Bush nor Cheney will ever again run for public office, this was absolutely the last chance to play the Osama card. We all understand how obtuse and irrational you conspiracy liars are, but nobody--NOBODY!--will swallow the idea that Bush and Cheney preferred taking a beating that wrecked their second term.

So, how about it, fantasy guy? What is the solution to the Osama Conundrum?
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pomeroo, although this was addressed to RedIbis, I'd like to point out that I've responded to this before and you did not reply.

To start, Osama's believing al Qaeda was wholly responsible for 9/11 does not preclude a conspiracy. And it is possible that the real Osama claimed responsibility and only newer videos employ a double, in order to maintain a bogeyman.

For the sake of your dreaded conundrum, let's assume that a conspiracy requires that the faction that pulled off 9/11 be in complete control of the messages Osama (or his doubles) release and that they could kill off Osama (or retire his doubles) at will.

Your dreaded conundrum makes a number of dubious asumptions. To name a few:

The loss of both houses in 2006 would be disastrous.

Perhaps you could point out some of these disastrous effects. The Patriot Act was not repealed. Guantanamo is still open. Iraq has more troops than before the election. Leaving aside the sentence (quickly commuted) for the liar, could you name some disastrous outcomes? And I don't see how this affects the 2008 elections, which Obama or McCain could lose on their own demerits.

Killing off the Osama legend is up to Bush and his cronies.

The 2006 elections were worth killing off the Osama legend.

Considering how little has changed, the conspirators were wise to keep the Golden Goose alive.

And transfering both houses to the Democrats at least gives the appearance of a functioning democracy. What's the approval rating of Congress? pomeroo, you need to face reality. Your rabid Democratic attack dogs on the 9/11 Commission were mythological creatures.
 
so we are now adding an "Osama Double" to the vast, complex conspiracy. Anything else you want to add in?

I mean we already have these in your ridiculous theories...

1. Fake Planes
2. Fake Phone Calls
3. Fake FDR evidence
4. Fake DNA results
5. Fake Passports
6. Faked crash sites

How about adding these:

1. Fake George Bush, who only comes out to say the bad things.
2. Fake ATC tapes
3. Fake Steel samples from WTC1 and 2

The amount of paranoia in the last 10-12 lines of your post, Clippy, is on a whole new level. Good luck with that. It must be a scary world you live in.

TAM:)
 
T.A.M.,

I see my deconstruction of the dreaded conundrum has reduced you to babbling.
 
Clippy said:
T.A.M.,

I see my deconstruction of the dreaded conundrum has reduced you to babbling.
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Deconstruction? If that is the case, anything can be deconstructed by simply saying "well it was a fake ____".

You are ridiculous. As for babbling, well nice flame bait, but no cigar.

Welcome to ignore *******.

TAM:)
 
T.A.M. said:
Deconstruction? If that is the case, anything can be deconstructed by simply saying "well it was a fake ____".

You are ridiculous. As for babbling, well nice flame bait, but no cigar.

Welcome to ignore *******.

TAM:)
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T.A.M., if you can still hear me; please reply to my post. Don't list a bunch of junk that has nothing to do with my post,

An ******* who cares.
 
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I thought the Osama conundrum was that the FBI had no hard evidence to charge him.
 
RedIbis said:
We're not talking about the towers, we're talking about Shanksville.
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The standard of evidence is the same, though. If you must have pictures of something in order to believe in it, then, logically, you must not believe that there were bodies in the rubble of the WTC. Why don't you? Because non-pictorial evidence led you to that conclusion.

Why isn't Gravy's list sufficient?
 
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