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School shooting Florida

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CaptainHowdy said:
No, that is not the case. From your writing, it would seem that if Nikolas Cruz had run down seventeen students in a Buick Regal, you believe that banning the Buick Regal would be an effective way to prevent further automobile fatalities.

Is that the case?
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Ah, totally up to speed now. Well done :)
 
Stepping back from this particular issue I do think there is some risk is assuming that people who are victims of horrible events somehow become experts in the causes or solutions of those events.

Now to be clear this absolutely does not in any way on any level excuse a bunch of tinfoil hat wearing Conspiracy Theoriest threatening children.

Just I feel the "Children will lead us" theme is something progressives are just a little too quick to latch onto, it fits into their preserved narrative a little to well. And there does run some risk of backfiring.
 
CaptainHowdy said:
cullenz isn't trying to steer the conversation away from the killer. People doing that are those who for some inexplicable reason believe that if Cruz was bullied, shooting all those students was appropriate but if he was merely ostracized then mass murder was an overreaction. No matter how Cruz was treated by his peers, killing seventeen of them is not justified.

Emma said he was ostracized. Other students have said he was bullied. I don't know exactly what these students mean when they say he was bullied. But if they say he was bullied, it's reasonable to think that he was bullied. Why are you so quick to dismiss the opinions of these children who have suffered such an unimaginable tragedy?

...libtard...
Edited by jsfisher: 
Moderated content redacted.
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Your entire agenda in this thread has been to discredit and smear these kids with lies and conspiracy theories. You only brought up the bullying angle in an attempt to discredit and smear Emma Gonzalez. Your clumsy attempt to pivot away from that now is as transparent as the conspiracy theories you peddle.
 
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CaptainHowdy said:
No, that is not the case. From your writing, it would seem that if Nikolas Cruz had run down seventeen students in a Buick Regal, you believe that banning the Buick Regal would be an effective way to prevent further automobile fatalities.
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Knives and now cars. You only need to bring up the dangers of swimming pools to complete the Gun Nut Trifecta of Distraction and Deflection.
 
Meadmaker said:
You know what would work great for that? A machete.
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I gave three hypothetical uses for a gun than can fire more than one bullet. Two involving large animals and one involving people. Your humorous reply mocked the effectiveness of using a machete against large animals but was silent on the effectiveness of a machete in killing a person. Does that mean that you acknowledge that a machete can be dangerous or do you still stand by your belief that it is impossible for somebody to kill seventeen people with a knife?
 
JoeMorgue said:
Stepping back from this particular issue I do think there is some risk is assuming that people who are victims of horrible events somehow become experts in the causes or solutions of those events.

Now to be clear this absolutely does not in any way on any level excuse a bunch of tinfoil hat wearing Conspiracy Theoriest threatening children.

Just I feel the "Children will lead us" theme is something progressives are just a little too quick to latch onto, it fits into their preserved narrative a little to well. And there does run some risk of backfiring.
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Is anyone claiming these children are experts?
 
JoeMorgue said:
Stepping back from this particular issue I do think there is some risk is assuming that people who are victims of horrible events somehow become experts in the causes or solutions of those events.
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But is that really what they are doing?

First and foremost, what I hear them saying is, "We are scared to go to school. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!"

Ok, no one does anything so they put out some suggestions. Whether they would work, I don't know. But if they don't work, someone needs to be a grownup and come up with something else.

Of course, they are getting criticized from the gun nuts for merely asking someone to do something and not coming up with their own plans. Nothing they do is good enough, very clearly.

But in the end, I see nothing wrong with kids (many of whom are not at the age of majority, and even when they are, they are not in charge) asking those who ARE in charge to do something.

They may not have the ability to determine the best solutions, but they can certainly bring up the problem.

And no, this isn't like them complaining about too much homework. It's very easy to say that they don't have too much homework. Now, who's going to be the person telling them that they are safe in their schools and that they shouldn't worry their little heads?
 
CaptainHowdy said:
I gave three hypothetical uses for a gun than can fire more than one bullet. Two involving large animals and one involving people. Your humorous reply mocked the effectiveness of using a machete against large animals but was silent on the effectiveness of a machete in killing a person. Does that mean that you acknowledge that a machete can be dangerous or do you still stand by your belief that it is impossible for somebody to kill seventeen people with a knife?
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It's possible to kill 50 people with a saucepan, but it would take a determined, calculating killer to do so. Cruz was a punk who bought mass murder in a box off the shelf. Regulation is proposed to keep guns like that out of the hands of punks like that.
 
CaptainHowdy said:
Yes. I did.
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No, you haven't

You have provided evidence of something you have claimed means bullying.. that is all

CaptainHowdy said:
Do you have any evidence that Cruz was a "Nazi"?
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He drew swastikas on his bag and on the magazine clips for the AR-15. He was anti-Semitic and a racist.

These things might not make him an actual card-carrying Florida Nazi, but it sure as hell will leave those around him the impression that he holds those views.

Cruz repeatedly threatened a former classmate who had started dating his ex-girlfriend. In an Instagram post, accompanying this photo

[IMGW=300]https://www.dropbox.com/s/4hartfjy69wn8v3/cruz%20gun.jpg?raw=1[/IMGW]

he wrote


“I’m going to *********** kill you, I’m going to watch you bleed. You have no idea what I’m capable of.”

He also sent this post to the person he threatened


[IMGW=300]https://www.dropbox.com/s/bj0qw3l32sqoxdi/cruz-fiveguns.png?raw=1[/IMGW]


He also sent numerous homophobic and racist Instagram posts to other students. Are you still wondering why his fellow students thought he was dangerous and wanted nothing to do with him?
 
Matthew Best said:
Do you still stand by your belief that Emma Gonzales admitted bullying Cruz?
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Emma Gonzalez didn't say the word bully. She said "Those talking about how we should have not ostracized him, YOU DIDN'T KNOW THIS KID. WE DID!!"

If a murder suspect told the police that 'we shouldn't have stabbed that kid to death' the police would reasonably conclude that this individual was talking about something he and others did. They would consider that enough of a confession to arrest the person.

So, by saying "we", Emma was describing what she and other students did. What they did was "ostracize" Cruz.

Ostracizing somebody can fall under the larger umbrella of bullying. I've never seen a definition of ostracize that is completely incompatible with bullying. Other students have said the word bullying to describe how Cruz was treated at school. A student said Cruz complained about being bullied. A neighbor said Cruz was bullied. His brother said he was bullied.

Any reasonable person who doesn't wear tinfoil hats in public would conclude she admitted to being a part of group of people who bullied Cruz. I don't know exactly what they did to bully Cruz or if their behavior was actually bullying. But multiple people said Cruz was bullied.

If Emma's fee fees are hurt because people think she's a bully, she can go on camera and explain what she meant.
 
smartcooky said:
No, you haven't

You have provided evidence of something you have claimed means bullying.. that is all



He drew swastikas on his bag and on the magazine clips for the AR-15. He was anti-Semitic and a racist.

These things might not make him an actual card-carrying Florida Nazi, but it sure as hell will leave those around him the impression that he holds those views.

Cruz repeatedly threatened a former classmate who had started dating his ex-girlfriend. In an Instagram post, accompanying this photo

[IMGW=300]https://www.dropbox.com/s/4hartfjy69wn8v3/cruz%20gun.jpg?raw=1[/IMGW]

he wrote


“I’m going to *********** kill you, I’m going to watch you bleed. You have no idea what I’m capable of.”

He also sent this post to the person he threatened


[IMGW=300]https://www.dropbox.com/s/bj0qw3l32sqoxdi/cruz-fiveguns.png?raw=1[/IMGW]


He also sent numerous homophobic and racist Instagram posts to other students. Are you still wondering why his fellow students thought he was dangerous and wanted nothing to do with him?
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The fun part about that photo with the handgun is that in the full pic, the orange tip of an airsoft toy gun is fully seen. Cruz clearly would have wanted a real one, as he is posing with the toy, but being under 21 he couldn't buy one from an FFL dealer. He could, of course, buy the AR.
 
CaptainHowdy said:
I gave three hypothetical uses for a gun than can fire more than one bullet. Two involving large animals and one involving people. Your humorous reply mocked the effectiveness of using a machete against large animals but was silent on the effectiveness of a machete in killing a person. Does that mean that you acknowledge that a machete can be dangerous or do you still stand by your belief that it is impossible for somebody to kill seventeen people with a knife?
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I can't blame you for trying. After all, it often works. Really, for many years now these discussions of machetes or swimming pools or Buick Regals have been met with near silence, so why not keep using them? They appear to be working.


You know the difference between a machete and a revolver, and a revolver and an AR-15. You know the difference in their effectiveness as killing tools. You know how to employ them effectively in different circumstances, and why a person who really wants to kill a bunch of people would use an AR-15 instead of a Mauser or a machete. You know all this, so there's really no point in going any further.

If you want a serious discussion about why some handguns ought to be allowed, but semi-auto rifles like the AR-15 ought to be banned, I can go along with that discussion. Throw machetes into the mix and its clear you're just trying to create a diversion.
 
CaptainHowdy said:
Are you saying that we should make public policy decisions based on the emotional outbursts of children who don't even have any expertise in the subject?
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I started to write something else. You know, the typical response that says, "Hey, that's not what we're doing and...."

But it occurred to me that was the wrong answer. The correct answer is

Hell, yes!

Our kids are growing up doing "active shooter" drills, being taught that one day a bad man might show up show up with a gun and they have to be taught to hide in the closet in the hopes that if they are very, very, quiet, the bad man will kill their friends instead of them.

Here's a group of people who are standing up and saying that's messed up and we ought to do something about it. They're right. We should. It's messed up. As for the specific policy suggestions, of course we shouldn't listen to emotional teenagers who aren't thinking straight because they just went to a bunch of funerals. However, as it turns out, what those kids are saying is what a lot of people have been saying for a very long time, but the socially acceptable thing to do for the last few decades is to not make a big fuss about it.

Well, the times they are a changing. We don't want active shooter drills anymore, and the rest of the world seems to get by without them. Let's do what they do.
 
Thermal said:
The fun part about that photo with the handgun is that in the full pic, the orange tip of an airsoft toy gun is fully seen. Cruz clearly would have wanted a real one, as he is posing with the toy, but being under 21 he couldn't buy one from an FFL dealer. He could, of course, buy the AR.
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Threatening with a toy gun is just as serious as doing so with a real one.

If you try holding up a bank while brandishing a toy gun, you are just as likely to be shot as you would be if you were carrying a real one.
 
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