School shooting Florida

[smartcooky]

You seem to keep trying to switch it from ostracising when the students said that is what they did.

Some definitions for you

ostracize: exclude from a society or group.

bully: use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force them to do something.

If you have evidence that what Gonzalez and her friends did was bullying, present it.

I repeat what I said earlier. If you choose not to associate with the school drug dealer, does that mean you are bullying him/her. How about members of the football team, or the basketball team? Are you bullying them just because you don't like their sport and you choose to have nothing to do with them?

 

[cullennz]

Some definitions for you

ostracize: exclude from a society or group.

bully: use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force them to do something.

If you have evidence that what Gonzalez and her friends did was bullying, present it.

I repeat what I said earlier. If you choose not to associate with the school drug dealer, does that mean you are bullying him/her. How about members of the football team, or the basketball team? Are you bullying them just because you don't like their sport and you choose to have nothing to do with them?

The evidence I have is she said they ostracised him.

She seems like a brainy chick, so I'm thinking she knows what it means.

If you have evidence she doesn't you could post it.

 

[smartcooky]

It's possible to kill seventeen people with a knife. It's possible to kill even more.

This is a grossly false analogy. Stabbing SLEEPING (and probably drugged) mental patients to death in the middle of the night simply does not compare with walking into a school full of FULLY AWAKE children and using a knife in the daytime.

Use your brains FFS!

 

[smartcooky]

The evidence I have is she said they ostracised him.

She seems like a brainy chick, so I'm thinking she knows what it means.

If you have evidence she doesn't you could post it.

I guess you are still missing the point, so let me explain it to you

OSTRACISING IS NOT THE SAME AS BULLYING

 

[Meadmaker]

It's possible to kill seventeen people with a knife. It's possible to kill even more.

Nick Cruz could not have killed seventeen people with a knife at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School. That's what I, and Emma Gonzalez, said.

It does my heart good to see ridiculous arguments like "you can kill just as many people with a knife." It means that when it comes to real logic, gun control opponents have nothing.

Additional interesting information in this story is the number of murders per 100,000 people in various countries. Anybody know what the gun laws in Mexico are like?

And this. I've seen Mexico brought up a lot since the Parkland massacre. Sometimes people go so far as to say that gun ownership is illegal, or that they have the some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. Both statements are false.

What the high murder rate in Mexico demonstrates is that there's no point in having gun control if your government is so weak that the laws can't be enforced.

 

[smartcooky]

I've seen Mexico brought up a lot since the Parkland massacre. Sometimes people go so far as to say that gun ownership is illegal, or that they have the some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. Both statements are false.

What the high murder rate in Mexico demonstrates is that there's no point in having gun control if your government is so weak that the laws can't be enforced.

Two words... "Drug Cartels"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/21/drug-violence-blamed-mexico-record-murders-2017

 

[Dr. Keith]

It does my heart good to see ridiculous arguments like "you can kill just as many people with a knife." It means that when it comes to real logic, gun control opponents have nothing.

Oh, I thought they were trying to argue that we don't need firearms for self defense because we have knives. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[cullennz]

I guess you are still missing the point, so let me explain it to you

OSTRACISING IS NOT THE SAME AS BULLYING

So ostracising a kid because they say happen to need a wheel chair isn't bullying

Understood

 

[smartcooky]

So ostracising a kid because they say happen to need a wheel chair isn't bullying

No, it isn't (and rule of "so").

Its not a nice thing to do, but its not bullying.

Pushing the wheelchair-bound kid down some steps, or locking them in the toilet... that would be bullying.

Understand the difference here.

Bullying is active, aggressive intimidation of the target, either physically or psychologically. The bully seeks out the target in order to do them harm.

Ostracising is passive, exclusion of the target. Those who ostracize others want to stay away from them and have nothing to do with them.

Having nothing to do with a student because they are a confessed Nazi, because they talk about killing people and because they act threateningly toward you, is not ostracizing or bullying.. it just commonsense.

 

[cullennz]

No, it isn't (and rule of "so").

Its not a nice thing to do, but its not bullying.

Pushing the wheelchair-bound kid down some steps, or locking them in the toilet... that would be bullying.

Understand the difference here.

Bullying is active, aggressive intimidation of the target, either physically or psychologically. The bully seeks out the target in order to do them harm.

Ostracising is passive, exclusion of the target. Those who ostracize others want to stay away from them and have nothing to do with them.

Having nothing to do with a student because they are a confessed Nazi, because they talk about killing people and because they act threateningly toward you, is not ostracizing or bullying.. it just commonsense.

Ok. I get that argument

If as you say ostracising is not a form of bullying, do you think it has the same effect as bullying and can do as much damage?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Florida school shooting suspect gets 'piles' of fan letters

Prison official state that teenage girls, women and men are sending letters and photographs of themselves and Facebook groups have been started to discuss how to help Nikolas Cruz, the South Florida Sun-Sentinel reports.

he newspaper obtained copies of letters, including one from a woman who called Cruz "beautiful" and others with suggestive photos.

Cruz, who is on suicide watch, has not seen any of the letters, which are opened by the jail.

Over 800 dollars has also been donated to his prison commissary account.

Link: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...-cruz-prison-love-letters-20180327-story.html

 

[quadraginta]

Perhaps Captain Howdy is secretly a shill for the ACLU. Of course they have a mission that is undoubtedly occasionally odious even to them, but in their mission of decoupling rights from qualfication, they would likely agree that in a world where the rule is tolerance and inclusion, we must tolerate and include those whose stated primary mission in life is to end tolerance and inclusion. I do not think, however, that we ordinary people must be so doctrinaire.

Yep.

The mission of the ACLU would and should include defending the tolerance and inclusion of a student with views as odious as Cruz's seem to have been into the school itself.

It should not and, I expect, would not defend Cruz against his expulsion from that school for acts of violence and threatening behavior.

They don't take any stance at all concerning what ordinary people choose to do among themselves, except possibly by defending their right to do it if it isn't illegal.

Not wanting to hang out with someone who is violent and odious in their speech and threatening in their behavior is certainly not "bullying". I wouldn't even consider it to be "ostracizing", unless there was some overt, organised effort by a majority of other students to try to prevent even people who chose to hang out with Cruz from doing so.

I haven't seen any evidence of that.

 

[quadraginta]

Florida school shooting suspect gets 'piles' of fan letters

Prison official state that teenage girls, women and men are sending letters and photographs of themselves and Facebook groups have been started to discuss how to help Nikolas Cruz, the South Florida Sun-Sentinel reports.

he newspaper obtained copies of letters, including one from a woman who called Cruz "beautiful" and others with suggestive photos.

Cruz, who is on suicide watch, has not seen any of the letters, which are opened by the jail.

Over 800 dollars has also been donated to his prison commissary account.

Link: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...-cruz-prison-love-letters-20180327-story.html

There are over 300 million people in the U.S. alone Even a tiny percentage of that can provide enough whackos and grue-groupies to amount to a formidable number. And that is a fraction of the rest of the world's population.

One thing the egalitarian aspects of the Internet have provided is a mechanism for all those whackos to get the news and converge, at least virtually, on the idols of their choice. Just one out of a million still yields hundreds, and thanks to that same Internet we'll hear about every single one of them.

 

[smartcooky]

If as you say ostracising is not a form of bullying, do you think it has the same effect as bullying and can do as much damage?

Physical bullying can cause physical damage (broken bones and even death). Even psychological bullying such as cyber-bullying can cause the victim to commit suicide. No amount of change by the victim of their way of being will change the bully. Bullies do what they do because they get off on the power and control.

However, when a victim is ostracised, it is far more often that not, the victim's own behaviour (especially towards others) that is the cause of their ostracism. In this particular case, Cruz's behaviour was the direct cause for other students ignoring him and not wanting to have anything to do with him

In answer to your question "do you think it has the same effect as bullying and can do as much damage?" I would have to say that it depends on the victim, but generally I would say no

Caveat: there will always be outlier/fringe cases, but this is definitely not one of them.

 

[Meadmaker]

Ostracising is passive, exclusion of the target.

(With some trepidation at participating in this......)


Actually, the reason I felt that Emma was weak with words when she said that is that "ostracizing" has connotations of being an active, not passive, activity. The word is very close to "banishment". When Greeks voted to banish someone, they put their "Ostraca" into the pile to cast their vote.


What she meant was that people ignored or avoided him, which in no way could possibly be considered bullying. By saying "ostracized", she created an impression that it was more like a cliqueish behavior that encouraged others to ignore him.

Either way, the whole topic is just a diversion. What she clearly meant was that this kid was trouble, and anyone can see it, and someone in authority should have done something about it. Somehow, this has gotten turned into something used to attack her. That's what happens when people are desperate to come up with anything they can.

 

[smartcooky]

There are over 300 million people in the U.S. alone Even a tiny percentage of that can provide enough whackos and grue-groupies to amount to a formidable number. And that is a fraction of the rest of the world's population.

One thing the egalitarian aspects of the Internet have provided is a mechanism for all those whackos to get the news and converge, at least virtually, on the idols of their choice. Just one out of a million still yields hundreds, and thanks to that same Internet we'll hear about every single one of them.

...and because of that last fact, the impression can arise that there are far more of these morons than there really are. What is remembered is that (say) 10,000 people wrote him fan letters; the fact that, out of 325,700,000 people in the USA, 325,690,000 didn't write, is forgotten.

 

[cullennz]

(With some trepidation at participating in this......)


Actually, the reason I felt that Emma was weak with words when she said that is that "ostracizing" has connotations of being an active, not passive, activity. The word is very close to "banishment". When Greeks voted to banish someone, they put their "Ostraca" into the pile to cast their vote.


What she meant was that people ignored or avoided him, which in no way could possibly be considered bullying. By saying "ostracized", she created an impression that it was more like a cliqueish behavior that encouraged others to ignore him.

Either way, the whole topic is just a diversion. What she clearly meant was that this kid was trouble, and anyone can see it, and someone in authority should have done something about it. Somehow, this has gotten turned into something used to attack her. That's what happens when people are desperate to come up with anything they can.

This is fine as well if you can show how you know that is what she meant and not what she said

 

[William Parcher]

Either way, the whole topic is just a diversion. What she clearly meant was that this kid was trouble, and anyone can see it, and someone in authority should have done something about it.

He was expelled from the school by people in authority. He was recognized as trouble and had threatened students. There are accounts of him bringing knives and bullets to school in his backpack. He would often swear at teachers. Additionally he had a significant learning disorder.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

Tackling the root cause of bullying? You mean "being human"? Because bullying is a part of the human condition.

Schools have done a pretty good job of getting rid or real, undoubtable, physical, bullying, of the sort that was pretty common when I was a kid ('70s), and very common when my dad was a kid ('40s). Anti=bullying programs are very much a part of today's school experience. Curiously, to the extent that these programs face any criticism at all, it usually comes from the right wing. I'm glad that conservatives are taking this important issue more seriously, or at least paying lip service to it.

However, no program will make it go away, because it's just a part of the human condition. How about if, instead, when we see a kid who seems anxious or upset about being the target of psychological bullying, of the sort that still remains and always will, we don't sell him an AR-15?

I have a hard time with the concept of penalizing a child because he is the victim of bullying. Being molested by an adult relative can also create anxiety or make a child upset. Should child rape victims also be prevented from buying a gun as well?

 

[Meadmaker]

I have a hard time with the concept of penalizing a child because he is the victim of bullying. Being molested by an adult relative can also create anxiety or make a child upset. Should child rape victims also be prevented from buying a gun as well?

You changed "AR-15" to "gun".

In my humble opinion, everyone, or at least darned near everyone, should be prevented from buying an AR-15. However, those who display signs of anxiety after being bullied, or being child rape victims, or being really, really, angry at anyone, for reasons good or bad, should certainly be prevented from buying an AR-15.....except that there's really no way to tell who is particularly dangerous except by creating some sort of neighborhood spy network, so, we'll have to go back to the first proposal. No one gets an AR-15.


ETA: And....penalty? Would it have been a "penalty" to prohibit Nick Cruz from buying an AR-15? It would have saved him the trouble of dying with a needle in his arm, or at least having to beg to avoid it, and die of old age after a useless life. I wish, and I'm sure he wishes, that he had been "penalized", whether or not he was bullied by anyone.