School shooting Florida

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Take a look at the posts: repeated references to Americans getting drunk or angry and shooting people. From the same post:

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Am reading into that, too? Not exactly subtle.

Sorry, but I think you are reading more into it than (I think) was intended.

It may be that our view is incorrect, but we do see a lot of stories in the US press of people getting shot be they are misidentified as intruders (from family members to people knocking at the door for directions) or because arguements escalate out of hand.
 
Well I suppose I should feel grateful that your complaint is only that you are just “slightly” irritated. I guess that's not too terrible for you then (given the importance of the subject where huge numbers of innocent people are being shot dead each year in the US).

There's no need to get personal or sanctimonious.

You do realise that every time you persist in downplaying the access that legal shooters have to guns you just help entrench gun owners fears that any compromise on legislation is just a stopgap measure on the road to a full ban and confiscation. Those of us trying to give a more balanced view of UK gun control are doing so because the only way that the "huge numbers of innocent people [who] are being shot dead each year in the US" will be reduced is with the co-operation of US gun owners.

If you want to pretend you're the only person on the forum who cares about the deaths go ahead, but save us the virtue signalling.
 
You're doing it again. If a person is going to go and shoot someone, do you think he'll be put off by the fact that he has to load a few bullets into the weapon first? Having a gun and ammunition in the house is the thing you should be talking about, not whether the ammunition is in the gun.

Well, in a lot of cases it would mean going home and getting the gun first, even within the home how long does it take to have a second thought and an "My God what am I doing" moment? Obviously this relates to crimes of passion rather than premeditated murder, but I'd still say the number is non trivial. How many domestic arguements end (or at least de-escalate) because of a ten second time out?

Culture also comes into it of course, carrying, a practicing with a gun for self defense is inevitably going to make you more likely to consider it an option when your fight or flight response kicks in. Similarly (carrying rather than home storage), if you have a gun and the person you're facing of with might have one themselves or might grab yours if you come to blows it's obviously going to raise the stakes massively in a situation that might otherwise be a 'shout, shove, and slap'.
 
No if you buy from a store they check your name against the federal list of people banned from buying guns and if there you can't. Of course states are not obligated to report these things owing to a case the NRA backed.

Buying in a private sale of course is generally legal.


Handguns, rifles and ammunition are regulated differently under federal law and by the individual states. In general, no licenses or permits are required. Commercial sales are subject to federal instant background checks. Private sales are generally not regulated and no background checks are required, although you're not supposed to sell guns to people who you have reason to believe shouldn't have them. Some states -- but not most -- impose their own licensing, registration, waiting periods, etc. If you buy a gun online it must be delivered to you through a licensed firearms dealer. The right to carry a concealed handgun is regulated and licensed separately by the states, not the federal government. Ammunition is an over-the-counter or mail order purchase in most states, no ID, no records. Every Walmart has glass cabinets with shelves of ammunition.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/doesn-t-make-sense-how-easy-it-buy-gun-n490756
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/02/world/international-gun-laws.html
http://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-laws/policy-areas/background-checks/background-check-procedures/



OK, well you thank you both for those clear polite explanations. And thanks too of course to Thermal for pointing it out to me in his/her earlier post.

Obviously from my reply to Thermal, and in fact from almost all my previous posts here, I had no idea that in many US sates you can simply walk into a gun store (even Walmart!) and just buy guns and bullets with, in effect, no questions asked at all (not just a lack of any declaration forms or any need to provide a certificate of legal responsibility/ownership etc. … but merely a shopkeeper who looks to see if your name is on a list of barred people) …

… frankly I'm amazed at how completely irresponsible US laws (local state laws) are if they allow almost anyone to buy guns (any sort of guns?) and bullets (any sort of bullets?) so easily and nonchalantly as that.

Well, what should I say? OK, that just looks like an open-goal opportunity to virtually ensure endless gun murders all over the USA.

Even if your name was on the banned list, is there is anything to stop your mate going into the shop and buying the guns and just giving them to you 30 seconds later outside the car park?

It also seems to render entirely meaningless any statements about the numbers of “legally owned” guns used in any of these shootings. Because if in effect all that you need to do is to just pay for the gun and the shop owner then just hands you whatever guns you want to buy, then all that “legally owned” would mean is that you did pay for the guns rather than stealing them!

OK, so … if that really is the case of such almost complete lack of any worthwhile restriction on anyone at all buying guns in many states, then I have to agree with Thermal that the US does at the very least need to introduce strict registration, licensing, and suitability/safety checks, on all gun purchase/ownership/usage, and that may (as Thermal says) have a significant impact on the number of fatalities every year. Though having said that, the licensing (or whatever term we use), still would not stop any of those gun owners keeping as many guns and bullets as they want in their own home … and imho, that home ownership remains the real heart of the problem (for all the reasons previously explained).
 
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Even if your name was on the banned list, is there is anything to stop your mate going into the shop and buying the guns and just giving them to you 30 seconds later outside the car park?

That's a "Straw Purchase"

In the United States, a straw purchaser of a firearm at a federally licensed firearm dealership who lies about the identity of the ultimate possessor of the gun can be charged with making false statements on a federal Firearms Transaction Record. If a firearm is purchased as a gift, the transaction is not a straw purchase, and the person buying the gift is considered the end user. It is illegal for any person not in possession of a Federal Firearms License to purchase a firearm with the intention of resale. Private purchases in lawful sales made outside of federally regulated dealerships are not subject to such rules and are legal unless the gun is used in a crime with the prior knowledge of the straw purchaser.[2]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_purchase

I believe this is a significantly abused.
 
Well, in a lot of cases it would mean going home and getting the gun first,.......

You missed my point entirely. Ian makes continuous reference to "loaded guns in the home". I continually point out to him that the loaded thing is a bit of nonsense that he for some reason keeps repeating. It takes seconds to load a gun.
 
You missed my point entirely. Ian makes continuous reference to "loaded guns in the home". I continually point out to him that the loaded thing is a bit of nonsense that he for some reason keeps repeating. It takes seconds to load a gun.

I agree I went outside the point to a degree (although I think the points are linked) but I did address your point directly as well-:

even within the home how long does it take to have a second thought and an "My God what am I doing" moment? Obviously this relates to crimes of passion rather than premeditated murder, but I'd still say the number is non trivial. How many domestic arguements end (or at least de-escalate) because of a ten second time out?

Culture also comes into it of course, carrying, a practicing with a gun for self defense is inevitably going to make you more likely to consider it an option when your fight or flight response kicks in.

I agree with you that it takes seconds to load a gun and it is no deterrent to premeditated murder, but a few seconds could be the difference between second thoughts and a life changing mistake in the heat of an argument.
 
Even if your name was on the banned list, is there is anything to stop your mate going into the shop and buying the guns and just giving them to you 30 seconds later outside the car park?

That is explicitly illegal, you have no obligation to find out if the person you sell a gun to is allowed to have a gun or not, but if you know he isn't selling him the gun becomes illegal. That is why more anonymous systems work so much better for that. Just go to a gun show and you are fine.
 
That is explicitly illegal, you have no obligation to find out if the person you sell a gun to is allowed to have a gun or not, but if you know he isn't selling him the gun becomes illegal. That is why more anonymous systems work so much better for that. Just go to a gun show and you are fine.

That can't be right. Conservatives on this very forum have assured us that there is no gun show loophole.....
 
That can't be right. Conservatives on this very forum have assured us that there is no gun show loophole.....
That's because the gunshow loophole has been defined as "bkgd checks are not required at gun shows". The fact is a dealer always has to obtain the bkgd check while the private citizen is not allowed to except for NFA firearms. A straw purchase is not the same as the so-called gunshow loophole.
 
That's because the gunshow loophole has been defined as "bkgd checks are not required at gun shows". The fact is a dealer always has to obtain the bkgd check while the private citizen is not allowed to except for NFA firearms. A straw purchase is not the same as the so-called gunshow loophole.

Thank you for proving my point.
 
That's because the gunshow loophole has been defined as "bkgd checks are not required at gun shows". The fact is a dealer always has to obtain the bkgd check while the private citizen is not allowed to except for NFA firearms. A straw purchase is not the same as the so-called gunshow loophole.

True gun shows technically don't matter they are just good places to meet non dealers with guns to sell. The internet is also a good place for that. The sale of course needs to be done in person.
 
It is perfectly legal to sell a person a gun without doing any background check if it is a private exchange. No straw necessary. This is called the "gun show loophole."
 
:confused: No offense is taken. I think the discussion is pretty cordial. But please, how am I misreading this?

'The vast mass of US shootings are when a homeowner has simply taken his guns and decided for various reasons to shoot people.'
Where is there data that shows most shooters own their homes?
I should think many of them are renters, or even of "no fixed address"
 
It is perfectly legal to sell a person a gun without doing any background check if it is a private exchange. No straw necessary. This is called the "gun show loophole."
Why do you call it a gunshow loophole if that is that is how the law is supposed to work? A loophole is an ambiguity of a law that is used to circumvent it. Federal law was written to only require bkgd checks when buying from a dealer.
 
Why do you call it a gunshow loophole if that is that is how the law is supposed to work? A loophole is an ambiguity of a law that is used to circumvent it. Federal law was written to only require bkgd checks when buying from a dealer.

It's called a gunshow loophole because people know they can go to a gunshow to find a private seller to buy a gun, to avoid a background check.
 
You have suggested repeatedly that this sort of thing is an attack on Americans, whereas, in the context of a conversation on shootings in America, it is nothing other than a statement of (claimed) fact.

I don't take it as an attack. I think it is a misconception, about Americans and (I would hope) people in general. IanS, and for that matter, pretty much all posters on this thread have been discussing this politely and in good faith. I don't think anyone is taking offense at anything.

IanS has claimed that the vast mass of US shootings are a homeowner picking up a gun and killing for a variety of reasons, with a virtually unlimited potential for murder. By the (rounded) numbers, there are about 33,000 annual gun deaths in the US. Over half are suicides. Of the remaining, over half are in poor urban areas, gang and other street violence. Overall, we are looking at under 8,000 'all other' causes, including mass killings, accidents and legally justified shootings. This is a far cry from the 'vast mass' being a homeowner's just up and killing (I am taking the 'homeowner' thing to mean just your average guy).
 
.......(I am taking the 'homeowner' thing to mean just your average guy).

Conveniently taking poor people, gang members and criminals out of the equation. You don't get to decide what someone else (IanS) means when they use a term.
 
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