School shooting Florida

[Nessie]

Its not really a contradiction; they are tough to identify, and when you can, its tough to do much. So make all owners jump through the hoops, essentially proving their competence up front. This of course is where the NRA gets up in arms about infringement. I would argue that it would not be infringing on able owners, while reducing threat via regulation as acknowledged in DC v Heller. The NRA worries about how to vett objectively, and that is a valid concern. Dead schoolchildren should be a great incentive to come to an agreement on the 'how' problem.

That is why for me Sandy Hook was the end. If that could not galvanise the country to act and get agreement, nothing can.

 

[crescent]

Call Of Duty games in every classroom.

Don't be crazy like that.

Call of Duty requires some sort of decent gaming system - they might try to use it for other things, like math games and science lessons, or even to teach them some coding skills.

Most importantly, computers are WAY too expensive to put in a school. Gotta keep an eye on the budget you know.

 

[Thermal]

That is why for me Sandy Hook was the end. If that could not galvanise the country to act and get agreement, nothing can.

Too true. There was talk up thread about this time feeling different. I'm afraid not. People thought Sandy Hook was the turning point, but after some posturing and rhetoric, things went back to business as usual. I understand the love for guns and hunting. I do not understand putting it above kids being shot in school

 

[Dr. Keith]

Don't be crazy like that.

Call of Duty requires some sort of decent gaming system - they might try to use it for other things, like math games and science lessons, or even to teach them some coding skills.

Most importantly, computers are WAY too expensive to put in a school. Gotta keep an eye on the budget you know.

I do love how the Federal government thinks it will be no big deal to spend a million dollars per school, but only so that weirdos can keep their guns. How about we take away the guns from weirdos and still spend a million dollars per school?

 

[William Parcher]

Its not really a contradiction; they are tough to identify, and when you can, its tough to do much. So make all owners jump through the hoops, essentially proving their competence up front. This of course is where the NRA gets up in arms about infringement. I would argue that it would not be infringing on able owners, while reducing threat via regulation as acknowledged in DC v Heller. The NRA worries about how to vett objectively, and that is a valid concern. Dead schoolchildren should be a great incentive to come to an agreement on the 'how' problem.

Yeah, that's why I said "something of" a contradiction... because it's a form of, or a sort of a contradiction. It really is.

Hard to identify them but we can restrict their ability.

Well, you can't really restrict them if they are hard to identify. You have two forces working against each other there. It's a form of contradiction.

 

[Nessie]

Too true. There was talk up thread about this time feeling different. I'm afraid not. People thought Sandy Hook was the turning point, but after some posturing and rhetoric, things went back to business as usual. I understand the love for guns and hunting. I do not understand putting it above kids being shot in school

What really shocked me about Sandy Hook and it has happened with the Florida shooting as well, is how many people think it is faked and how strongly they believe that.

Thinking the shootings are hoaxes, is the weirdest copy strategy yet. It shows that many Americans are just not prepared to accept the problem, let alone deal with it.

 

[Nessie]

I do love how the Federal government thinks it will be no big deal to spend a million dollars per school, but only so that weirdos can keep their guns. How about we take away the guns from weirdos and still spend a million dollars per school?

How expensive, cost and lives, would it be to try and get guns of the "cold dead hands" people? There are millions of guns to be traced and removed and for all Trump thinks the courts can be by-passed, they cannot and lawyers will make millions as the law tries to define who is suitable and who is a weirdo.

It is incredible, but bullet proof glass in all schools could be the cheaper option.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The argument about who would be deemed not fit is a tough one. Based on convictions, or are repeated police reports enough? The Pulse nightclub shooter, IIRC, had a clean background, but was seen to become unhinged. Could people reporting odd behavior warrant suspension of gun use? The objectivity problem kicks in again. But you are right, some people are already over the line, as Cruz was, and it should not be so Herculean a task to nip guys like that in the bud

So lots of encounters with the police should result in losing guns, should florida's favored son George Zimmerman have lost his rights to own guns well before the famous shooting?

 

[Thermal]

Yeah, that's why I said "something of" a contradiction... because it's a form of, or a sort of a contradiction. It really is.

Hard to identify them but we can restrict their ability.

Well, you can't really restrict them if they are hard to identify. You have two forces working against each other there. It's a form of contradiction.

They are hard to identify,

And when you can identify them, it is still hard to act.

So rather than try to single them out, have all owners jump through the same hoops.

I don't see a contradiction?

 

[Dr. Keith]

How expensive, cost and lives, would it be to try and get guns of the "cold dead hands" people? There are millions of guns to be traced and removed and for all Trump thinks the courts can be by-passed, they cannot and lawyers will make millions as the law tries to define who is suitable and who is a weirdo.

It is incredible, but bullet proof glass in all schools could be the cheaper option.

You can't get all the guns. Can't be done. But you can make them less available to those who shouldn't have them. Make it easier for courts, cops and public health officials to temporarily remove guns from a home and it will have an impact. Make it harder for young people and those with criminal records to get a gun and it will have an impact.

Bullet proof glass isn't a solution, making guns less available is.

 

[crescent]

It is incredible, but bullet proof glass in all schools could be the cheaper option.

They might do that for show here and there, but that concept is mostly just that: for show.

1. Create a concept the liberals won't like; the concept will be used as a red herring to avoid any real plan
2. Don't implement the concept
3. Blame the liberals for lack of implementation since they never liked the concept anyway.

Politics as usual.

That said, those meddling school kids might disrupt some of these plans. Things are actually happening this time around. Several of the "March for Our Lives" events have already switched to larger venues due to strong public interest. They are getting a lot of logistical help from people in the Women's March Movement. The local chapter set a maximum age of 26 for people to hold positions within the organizing committees and such.

There is some movement in the cooperate world, with Dick's pulling AR-15 variants from the shelves, Dick's, Walmart, and Kroger raising the purchase age to 21. Dick's also put out a pretty clear and concise list of gun control policies they would like to see implemented.

The March in Washington itself has hit a snafu, the Washington Mall has already been reserved by another group (a school talent show, if you can believe it) and needs to look for a different venue.

I feel like there is a real chance of meaningful change this time around. Not a dramatic huge change - but something at least, rather than the loosening of restrictions that has been more common at the Federal level for the past few decades.

 

[Thermal]

So lots of encounters with the police should result in losing guns, should florida's favored son George Zimmerman have lost his rights to own guns well before the famous shooting?

On what grounds?

 

[William Parcher]

That is why for me Sandy Hook was the end. If that could not galvanise the country to act and get agreement, nothing can.

Yeah, and I think it's because we have two battling cultures here. Each side is huge. One side says those guns have got to be strictly regulated. The other side says those guns are not to be strictly regulated.

We have other cultural battles as well such as abortion which divides the country into two huge sides.

People who say that this Florida thing is going to change it all really don't understand the deep cultural diversity of America. They don't understand that one side is not going to collapse into the other side.

No amount of ridicule or scorn coming from other countries is going to change that. We are a country that is already formed by diverse people from other places. Guns will be here forever - and so too will be their opposition.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Yeah, and I think it's because we have two battling cultures here. Each side is huge. One side says those guns have got to be strictly regulated. The other side says those guns are not to be strictly regulated.

The thing is though, fewer and fewer people actually live outside of urban areas. As more people live in close proximity to their neighbors they get a bit more nervous about their neighbor having an arsenal and ****** kid. One or the other you can put up with, maybe. But the combination is frightening.

Sure, I spent a lot of my youth on open land where I would have a hard time drawing the attention of the local sheriff even if I were to set off bombs. But that is rare today. Even in small towns more people are living in town or in neighborhoods. Sheetrock doesn't slow down a shot from an AR-15.

I think the NRA have finally overplayed their hand and I think Trump may be the first president in a long time that can actually stand up to them. I would sing his praises and apologize to theprestige if Trump actually does something useful in his generally chaotic style. Although, I feel bit like Charlie Brown trying to kick a football as I write this.

 

[William Parcher]

There is some movement in the cooperate world, with Dick's pulling AR-15 variants from the shelves, Dick's, Walmart, and Kroger raising the purchase age to 21. Dick's also put out a pretty clear and concise list of gun control policies they would like to see implemented.

I would write that differently for more accuracy and clarity.

Field & Stream, Walmart and Fred Meyer raised the purchase age to 21.

The March in Washington itself has hit a snafu, the Washington Mall has already been reserved by another group (a school talent show, if you can believe it) and needs to look for a different venue.

If it really is different this time and important change really is happening then the talent show will voluntarily step aside and give these other people the stage. The talent kids will say, "look, you guys are way more important than we are right now and so you take priority over us. We will do our thing later or we'll do it somewhere else because you need to be on the National Mall right now!!!!"

That would be a sign of something changing. Watch to see if it happens.

 

[crescent]

I would write that differently for more accuracy and clarity.

Field & Stream, Walmart and Fred Meyer raised the purchase age to 21.

Pedantry: Dick's ordered it's subsidiary to stop selling AR-15s. Dick's changed it own policy to prohibit sales to under 21's and ordered its subsidiary to do the same.

Kroger also ordered its subsidiary to make changes. (The fact that one of Kroger's subsidiaries has the same name as the larger corporate body does not change that)

Dick's and Kroger are the corporations, the names of the subsidiaries are less important as they are only following orders.

 

[William Parcher]

Pedantry

No, clarity.

Dick's = 600 stores.
Field & Stream = 35 stores.

Dick's just raised the purchase age to 21.
Oh wow, so that's like now happening at 600 stores.
No, it's happening at 35 stores.
Why only 35?
Because it's happening at Field & Stream, not Dick's.


^ That is not pedantry in the real world.

 

[crescent]

No, clarity.

Dick's = 600 stores.
Field & Stream = 35 stores.

Dick's just raised the purchase age to 21.
Oh wow, so that's like now happening at 600 stores.
No, it's happening at 35 stores.
Why only 35?
Because it's happening at Field & Stream, not Dick's.


^ That is not pedantry in the real world.

Incorrect.
Dick's raised the purchasing age to 21 - at all of its stores, not just Field and Stream. It is happening at both Dicks and Field and Stream. Dick's is also stopping all sales of high capacity magazines at both its Dick's branded stores as well as its Field and Stream branded stores. All 600+ of them. It is happening at BOTH stores, all of them.

Dick's has also ordered its subsidiary to stop selling AR-15s.

 

[William Parcher]

Well then what was I reading about this happening at only 35 of their F&S stores? Why was that the story?

 

[crescent]

Well then what was I reading about this happening at only 35 of their F&S stores? Why was that the story?

The change on sales of AR-15's is limited to the Field and Steam stores, as Dick's stores stopped selling them after Sandy Hook.

All of the other changes are corporate-wide.