School shooting Florida

Status
Not open for further replies.
baron said:
Just listened for the second time to Trump's speech about how it would be so great for teachers to carry guns in the classroom.

"If [the Florida gunman] thought that other people would be shooting bullets back at him, he wouldn’t have gone there. A teacher would have shot the hell out of him before he ever knew what happened."

Aside from the horrific immaturity of the statement, and the inanity of the scenarios it implies, it makes no sense. Surely every school shooter realises that at some point armed police will turn up and start shooting at him. So if the certainty of armed response doesn't put them off, how would the possibility of armed response?
Click to expand...

That's not what happened in Florida. Not a single shot was fired at him.
 
baron said:
Just listened for the second time to Trump's speech about how it would be so great for teachers to carry guns in the classroom.

"If [the Florida gunman] thought that other people would be shooting bullets back at him, he wouldn’t have gone there. A teacher would have shot the hell out of him before he ever knew what happened."

Aside from the horrific immaturity of the statement, and the inanity of the scenarios it implies, it makes no sense. Surely every school shooter realises that at some point armed police will turn up and start shooting at him. So if the certainty of armed response doesn't put them off, how would the possibility of armed response?
Click to expand...

Yeah, well consider the source...
 
Ranb said:
What was he trained or expected to do in this kind of situation? Unless he was trained to counter a school shooter, then I would not expect him to live up to anyone's expectations if they assumed he would enter the school and subdue the shooter.
Click to expand...

Don't know anything about this particular cop. But "active shooter" training has been part of police education pretty much since Columbine. It's much more likely that a veteran police officer has received such training than hasn't. And the first cops on the scene might not necessarily be able to "subdue" the shooter, but they can locate him, confront him, distract him, draw him away or chase him away from victims, etc. The choice is not Rambo or nothing.
 
P.J. Denyer said:
Yeah, well consider the source...
Click to expand...

The whole thing about armed teachers is so bizarre I don't think many people in the UK fully believe it's being seriously suggested. It's like discussing the politics of an alien land.
 
P.J. Denyer said:
From context I'd guess it's a concern that there's too much segregation of students by age (presumably at meals, breaks etc) and that this is hampering the natural social developement that comes from mixing with, and imitating older children.
Click to expand...
:confused:

So a vaguely related issue about kids socializing needs at schools?

This is drifting so I'll just leave it here.
 
Bob001 said:
The guy was an armed county sheriff, a sworn law enforcement officer no different from the police, with 30 years of experience. And that court decision -- which wouldn't necessarily carry any weight in Florida -- was about whether the police have a duty to protect any particular person, not whether they can choose not to perform their duty generally as police officers.


The case was about the police department failing to respond properly to a 911 call, starting with the dispatcher. That just can't be used to justify or rationalize a cop sitting outside a school where screaming children are being murdered.
Click to expand...
I will add as well that many (all?) off-duty police are required to respond to crimes in progress regardless of whatever else they are doing. My uncle had to carry his gun when he was off-duty for that reason.

So it wouldn't matter if security was not his job at the school.
 
Darat said:
Would that be enough to alter the perception generated by the majority of the media we all consume?

I've said it before part of the USA issue in regards to violence of all kinds (and this is not unique to the USA) is how violence is portrayed in pretty much all media - i.e. unrealistic and sanitised which normalises the idea of violence.

Violence in the media does not create violence but it does affect how we perceive violence.
Click to expand...
Emmett Till is an example where showing the mutilated dead body made a difference.
 
baron said:
The whole thing about armed teachers is so bizarre I don't think many people in the UK fully believe it's being seriously suggested. It's like discussing the politics of an alien land.
Click to expand...

Giving a gun to any of the teachers I had is a frightening thought.
 
baron said:
The whole thing about armed teachers is so bizarre I don't think many people in the UK fully believe it's being seriously suggested. It's like discussing the politics of an alien land.
Click to expand...

I'm pro-gun and I believe this has to be has to be one of, if not the most unbelievably stupid thing I've ever heard a US president say.

I suppose you can list this among his achievements - In a little over a year he's managed to top Dubya in that regard.
 
I saw the list of companies that just dumped the NRA. Car rentals and airlines are in there. They were offering discounts to members who used their services. I don't know if they actually gave cash to the NRA. But they are gone now and NRA members won't get those consumer discounts anymore.

I think that there is a possibility that this shakeup and minor exodus from NRA will make that organization and its members stronger and more determined. An even stronger NRA? Yes, maybe.

Do we need to start a new thread because this NRA stuff is a derail?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Giving a gun to any of the teachers I had is a frightening thought.
Click to expand...

My geography teacher was a veteran of the Long Range Desert Group, he might have been useful. But, as others have said, it's a batsh*t crazy idea viewed from this side of the pond.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
The following companies have cut ties with the NRA over the last 24 hours.

Enterprise, Wyndham, Metlife,Hertz, Best Western, First National Bank, Alamo, National, Symantec, Chubb and SIRVA
Click to expand...

The part that is confusing me is, why in the hell are Enterprise, Wyndham, Hertz, Best Western, etc giving discounts to NRA members in the first *********** place?

Why should the NRA get special treatment?

I also heard that airlines are ending their special group deals for NRA events.

My wife is a vet. Airlines don't give group discounts to AVMA members for travel to AVMA events (hotels do, in convention cities, but they do with all conventions).

Since when do public advocacy organization members get business discounts? Other than the AARP, that is.
 
erlando said:
If Sandy Hook did nothing, why should this shooting? One would think that 20 dead pre-schoolers would spur the general public to push the politicians into action.
Click to expand...

Because it's not "the general public" that are pushing the action here.

It's high schoolers.
 
http://nation.time.com/2013/09/16/ready-fire-aim-the-science-behind-police-shooting-bystanders/

"According to a 2008 RAND Corporation study evaluating the New York Police Department’s firearm training, between 1998 and 2006, the average hit rate during gunfights was just 18 percent. When suspects did not return fire, police officers hit their targets 30 percent of the time."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/weekinreview/09baker.html

"In Los Angeles, where there are far fewer shots discharged, the police fired 67 times in 2006 and had 27 hits, a 40 percent hit rate, which, while better than New York’s, still shows that they miss targets more often they hit them."

Teachers will or will not be better shots than police officers? Is it possible the best tactic is to do everything to hide or escape, rather than engage?
 
ou stop active shooters by shooting, moving and communicating. How will these armed teachers communicate with police responding to a school shooting to deconflict movements and avoid fratricide? How will they let the police know they aren't the shooter?

Will these teachers get training beyond the pathetic excuse for qualifications required to get a carry permit? If a teacher were to discharge a weapon it would be in close proximity to innocent children bystanders. Will they have to demonstrate marksmanship skills indicating they could safely do that? What about weapon retention training. When I went through FLETC I had to fight off a guy in a Redman suit trying to steal my gun. Will the teachers train and practice that so a student can't get control of a weapon.

How about we figure out how to get more police in school who do this stuff for a living? If you arm teachers, your choices are to have woefully unqualified armed people around children or you have unrealistic training requirements levied on people who already have significant continuing education expectations to stay current as teachers.
 
jimbob said:
Now I have heard that there were four deputies that did nothing, and tgat they could have looked at CCTV, then I think that they could have gone in together with some prior knowledge.
Click to expand...

I do not blame the guard in this case for cowering outside and not going in. I am not in a position to say what the right approach should be, so I won't judge him on it.

But what I will say is that it absolutely shows the folly of the suggestion that a good guy with a gun will make a difference.

This school had a *********** ARMED GUARD and it didn't stop a shooter from destroying the place and lives.

Instead of blaming the guard for not doing enough, why not just accept the fact that the failure is in thinking it would make a difference.
 
pgwenthold said:
The part that is confusing me is, why in the hell are Enterprise, Wyndham, Hertz, Best Western, etc giving discounts to NRA members in the first *********** place?

Why should the NRA get special treatment?

I also heard that airlines are ending their special group deals for NRA events.

My wife is a vet. Airlines don't give group discounts to AVMA members for travel to AVMA events (hotels do, in convention cities, but they do with all conventions).

Since when do public advocacy organization members get business discounts? Other than the AARP, that is.
Click to expand...

It is/was a marketing tool. Many businesses give discounts to people in particular professions or members of particular organizations. There are AAA discounts at a lot of places. The idea is if you give NRA members -- 5 million+ -- a discount and your competitor doesn't, the customer has an incentive to buy from you. But then if your competitors do it too, you're all back to square one. What's interesting is that a lot of similar businesses -- car rental companies, hotel chains, etc. -- are all cancelling the discount. They're willing to forgo any possible advantage of keeping it in response to pushback from the general public.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom