School shooting Florida

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If our government falls too far out of line with what most of us want, a revolution (or the mere ability to bring one) is the only thing that will protect our free states.

Or, you know, we could end gerrymandering, enact strict campaign finance reform, end voter suppression, and allow open primaries, so that we actually have a chance at electing people who want the same things that the American public wants.

Except that the most enthusiastic firearms advocates seem to support the continuation of the these efforts to undermine democracy, then threaten revolution if they don't get what they want.

Remember when the firearms advocates escorted the civil rights marchers, so the police would not attack them? I don't it never happened.
Remember when vigilantes with guns killed civil rights workers? That I remember, because it happened.

In all of our history, "good guys with guns" have never represented the will of the majority in any meaningful action.

Forget actual functional democracy, lets just threaten with guns. Yes. That will totally work.
 
That's a bit of a hyperbole, no? Few people die by guns every year. Most people die of some sort of disease, or old age.

Old age is a natural death. Disease is not an act of malice. Even then, we make great efforts to deal with both.

Somehow, we never take action with guns. I am far from alone in my fury.
 
I am tired of calming down. I am furious. Everyone should be.

We just keep killing and getting killed.

I am going to stay plenty angry over this until changes are made.
No we do not just keep killing. I don't do it and I presume that you don't either. The reason I wouldn't say that "we" keep killing is because I do not find any kinship or social bond or commonality with the mentally ill. Particularly the homicidal mentally ill.

I am not one of them. So I cannot agree with you. Cruz is so bizarre and so different that it is as if he isn't even human.
 
Old age is a natural death. Disease is not an act of malice. Even then, we make great efforts to deal with both.

Somehow, we never take action with guns. I am far from alone in my fury.

Because one kills millions and the other thousands. A bit of a difference. Plus, guns are the result of choices "we" have made as a society, while everybody seems to agree that disease is bad.
 
In some ways, I'm jealous of those in the UK who see their government as a benevolent entity providing for the peoples and working with the overall health of the population in mind.

An awful lot of us don't, we feel the correct way to deal with this is by persuading other people to our point of view and voting the government out. We also see a government with which we do not agree as a lesser evil than civil war.

[As an illustration MikeG and I are politically hugely seperated, in UK to US terms think 100% Trump to 100% Hillary. Yet on this subject I think we are firmly on the same side.]
 
Or, you know, we could end gerrymandering, enact strict campaign finance reform, end voter suppression, and allow open primaries, so that we actually have a chance at electing people who want the same things that the American public wants.

Except that the most enthusiastic firearms advocates seem to support the continuation of the these efforts to undermine democracy, then threaten revolution if they don't get what they want.

Remember when the firearms advocates escorted the civil rights marchers, so the police would not attack them? I don't it never happened.
Remember when vigilantes with guns killed civil rights workers? That I remember, because it happened.

In all of our history, "good guys with guns" have never represented the will of the majority in any meaningful action.

Forget actual functional democracy, lets just threaten with guns. Yes. That will totally work.

(nods)

I hear you. I'm not particularly advocating our current climate. I'm simply reminding everyone how we got here, and why we've stayed here.

However, I personally don't believe it's effective, as in my lifetime I've seen a great number of our civil liberties trampled, and the guns -and people holding the guns- never did anything to stop it.

As I said upstream: money is what will make the difference. If there's anything, anywhere, that will cause America to suddenly become a gun-free zone, it's finding a way for a few currently wealthy Americans to become super rich in a no-gun climate.

California's current water crises -as I understand it- is a prime example. The state government allowed a small group of wealthy farmers to take control of the entire state's water supply. Those wealthy farmers are becoming super rich, and the people of California are living in a water-free zone.

If a few Americans see a way to gain financially from removing guns, the hardware will disappear. They will have to be wealthy enough to get it through the political system, but where there's a dollar to be made, there is the will -and stomach- to make it, no matter how many suffer or die on the highway; which is the other thing which should be carefully considered. Once the guns are gone, and no one can protect themselves, we already know the government and police won't step up to do it. So who will?
 
I'Ve never understood that rule, unless the laws do not permit you to use your firearms to defend yourself in your home.

Correct.

http://www.police.govt.nz/advice/firearms-and-safety/standard-new-zealand-firearms-licence

You will have difficulty being deemed 'fit and proper' to possess or use firearms if you have:

a history of violence
repeated involvement with drugs
been irresponsible with alcohol
a personal or social relationship with people deemed to be unsuitable to be given access to firearms
indicated an intent to use a firearm for self-defence.
 
For all the restrictions the UK has, ownership is still common.

The best I have found on that is 155k gun certificates and 562k shotgun certificates for England and Wales covering a population of 56 million. That is Less than 2%.

In the US, 20 to 30% own guns with handguns being the most common.

It sure doesn't sound that common. If gun owners were an ethnic group, destroying their culture down from 20% to 2% would be a genocide (as opposed to the American genocide committed by the gun owners).

ETA; "common" is a weird word. Suppose I grew up in a room with 50 people, and 10 wore top hats. Then rule changes make it so that only one person has a top hat. If you came in and said, "look at all these top hats," I would think you were nuts.
 
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The 2nd amendment says:


"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

We need to remember that when the constitution was drafted, guns were not just for hunting or self-defense or target practice. They were the weapons of war, which had just freed our country from the tyranny of the British government.

Lovely bit of hyperbole there. You also need to remember the "well regulated" bit. The militia was intended to be the army of the United States - able to drill like a professional military, use its weapons in formation like a professional military, etc. Americans no longer subscribe to that idea for a militia - as it would have entailed having every person maintain not just any old firearm that took their fancy, but one of a prescribed pattern, using a standard calibre and likely capable of taking a bayonet - because if the national defence force can't repair the military weapons or provide them with ammunition or use them effectively in a military context you don't have a militia - you have an armed mob.

Also when your Constitution was drafted slavery was still a thing, women were property, and only landowners could vote. Society changes and sometimes the basic law needs adjustment as well.

The reason no one in their right minds wants any kind of ban on guns that prevents guns from being readily accessed and used is to prevent our current government from becoming tyrannical. They have to take away the guns -or just keep making them harder and harder to get- before they can make many inroads against our other civil rights.

But, once it's impossible for the average person to get guns, all the average people are hostage to whatever happens next -the loss of free speech & the free press, being subject to search and seizures (ergo losing any guns they've hidden), etc.

No one in the USA wants that. Or, at least, no one in the USA should want that.

Is that why Canada is such a repressive hellhole? The UK a place where the state ruthlessly crushes all opposition? The Australians and New Zealanders suffer and are treated as less than human by their government?

Only the radical folk are talking complete bans - the rational majority are talking regulations - rational limitations agreed upon by the electorate.

Radicals exist in every form of human endeavour - from religion to politics to sports - and the vast majority of people do their very best to make sure the radicals don't spoil it for the rest of us.

I think if the gun control advocates want to make real inroads toward finding ways to keep guns out of the hands of those who should not have them, and lower the murder rate, they have to approach the issue with the reasons for the 2nd amendment's existence in mind.

OK - everyone who wants a firearm has to join a properly formed militia and perform military service. Said weapons will be of a prescribed type and calibre. Refresher training will occur regularly - those unwilling to fulfill their obligations to society will not be permitted to exercise their rights, those that do can.

Another way is to restrict the type of arms available to those that make it harder to carry out the sort of mass killings that are becoming more and more commonplace.

Remember: the Constitution is not an ideal, or a best-case-scenario. It's the law.

And like any law, it can be amended.

In the case of the Constitution, it's just a little more involved than repealing the prohibition on witchcraft, but no more burdensome than say repealing the 18th Amendment with the 21st. All it takes is political willpower.

In some ways, I'm jealous of those in the UK who see their government as a benevolent entity providing for the peoples and working with the overall health of the population in mind.

As a Canadian I don't view the Government as a benevolent entity, any more then most British people do. I do expect that a government made up of fellow citizens, who can be removed from power if they fail to look after the interests of the population, as the best way of doing what needs to be done.

However, I'm quite American, and at the end of the day I do not -will never- trust our government to put the welfare of the citizens above the person desires of those in power. Nor do I have to go far to find examples of this happening already -from enacting laws forcing people to buy various forms of insurance to seizing assets from those merely suspected of a crime, many of us see the rights to bear arms as a necessity. If our government falls too far out of line with what most of us want, a revolution (or the mere ability to bring one) is the only thing that will protect our free states.

What are those students doing by marching to demand gun control if not bringing a revolution? What did the civil rights movement do but bring a revolution? And what is the underlying commonality? Non-violence.

You don't need guns to change a democracy (or a democratic republic, or constitutional monarchy), you need political will.
 
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NJ does this, but without the annual renewal (which I think there should be). I recently applied for a change of address on my 30 yr old firearm purchaser ID. Took three months to process, with criminal and mental health background checks. To purchase a handgun, a separate permit is required for each, takes forever to get and is valid for 90 days after issuance. Of course, no open or concealed carry in Jersey at all. Wal-Mart doesn't sell guns or ammo in the state, either.

I don't understand the argument against registration. It would effectively numb out the gray and black markets, resulting in less illegal weapons on the street, and at no significant inconvenience to the owners.


Sounds like NJ has more responsible gun laws than many other US states. Though of course, since I don't live in the US, I have no idea how many people in NJ do own guns, and I have no idea if the figures for gun crime are lower there than in other states?

Obviously, I would still think there are way too many guns in any US states (I think that is what almost everyone in Europe thinks). But if NJ can introduce tighter gun laws then other states could surely do that too ... though to be really effective I think it will need laws much closer to what we have in the UK (and afaik, what they have in most other EU nations).

If the US did ever want to introduce much stricter controls similar to what we have in the UK, then maybe one way to at least partly defuse the anger and opposition from groups like the NRA, could be to somehow phase the changes in over a period of say 10 years ... that would at least give people time to get used to a new approach to gun ownership, and give time for people who make a living from buying & selling guns and bullets to plan for significant changes in the medium-term future?
 
What you are advocating is a little bit of trimming around the edges and no real change because you want to own a military weapon as a toy.

You are accepting that the regular mass murder is a price worth paying for your toys.

What I'm advocating is a compromise that has a chance of being passed and that would have prevented, for instance, the Sutherland Springs shooting (don't we always hear "if it will save just one life" from the anti-gun crowd?)

I resent the hell out of your accusing me of not caring about mass murder.
 
See, this is why this event is no different from all the others, despite many people saying that it "feels" different (what does that even mean anyway?). We're going over the same ground in this thread that we went over in all the other threads, and every time we have this discussion, we get absolutely nowhere.

I don't want to take your guns. I want you to want to give your guns away. Only when American gun owners accept that they have to give up some of their "freedoms" for the safety and security of their society will there be any meaningful change.

Non-gun owners cannot change that for you. The movement has to come from within the ranks of the gun owners.
 
See, this is why this event is no different from all the others, despite many people saying that it "feels" different (what does that even mean anyway?). We're going over the same ground in this thread that we went over in all the other threads, and every time we have this discussion, we get absolutely nowhere.

I don't want to take your guns. I want you to want to give your guns away. Only when American gun owners accept that they have to give up some of their "freedoms" for the safety and security of their society will there be any meaningful change.
Non-gun owners cannot change that for you. The movement has to come from within the ranks of the gun owners.

Thanks for posting that. It meshes nicely with my view even though it took your post to summarize it for me.
 
Newt Gingrich says that every school should have a minimum of 6-8 armed teachers who are trained in the use of firearms and are prepared to defend students.
...who will be priority targets for the next ******* who decides to shoot up a school.
 
For all the restrictions the UK has, ownership is still common.


No, actually it's very far from common for ordinary private citizens to personally own guns, and it's almost impossible for private citizens to keep guns and bullets on ready access in their own private homes.

Take a look at the link I gave earlier to that BBC article describing the UK gun law's and under what circumstances any particular individual can legally own a gun. What you see there is that there are plenty of UK farmers & gamekeeper's and people who like to shoot partridges & pigeons on farmland, who are legally allowed to own shotguns, and there are quite a few licensed secure gun clubs where all the guns are only available for use on the club premises (afaik, you cannot take guns away from the premises) ...

... but the key element is this - not only are handguns entirely banned in the UK, and also various types of rifles, but if any private person does apply for a licence to own a gun, then he/she must show on the application forms why they actually' "need" any sort of gun in the first place ... and that is a requirement that is 99.9% impossible for anyone to meet (except for the aforementioned farmers and gun clubs) ... if you say that you need a gun for self defence then that will be rejected immediately as obviously absurd and untrue ... if you say you need one to shoot a pigeons or targets in your back yard/garden, then that too will be instantly dismissed since it's not a "need" i.e. not a "necessity" for you to do that ... it's almost impossible to actually support any claim that you actually "need" a gun of any kind.
 
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