School shooting Florida

[BobTheCoward]

It does feel different this time, but I don't think Republicans can be shamed into passing legislation. Sociopaths aren't persuaded with shame. Maybe, however, this movement will effect the 2018 elections so that Republicans lose power and Democrats can get some legislations passed.

Why is it so inconceivable that they legitimately view firearm ownership as a right and have fundamental different ideas from you on safety?

 

[Meadmaker]

I've seen this sentiment a couple times in this thread now. Is there any evidence that if guns were illegal, that illegal gun dealers would vet the people they sell to? Drugs are illegal now, and drug dealers pretty much sell to anyone who has the cash, no questions asked. Would that be different w/ guns?

Have you ever tried to score 1000 dollars worth of drugs? Neither have I, but like most people who grew up in the 70s, I know people who have. As best I can tell, they ask plenty of questions. And even the penny ante dealers who manage to get hold of a pound and chop it into lids were pretty darned cautious.

So, yeah, it would be different with guns. The little guys who are drug dealers who can score you a hit are the little guys, and their product is gone quickly. Guns? Not so much. The gun dealer knows that his product is going to be around a long time and, unlike with drugs, the nature of his product is that its use draws an awful lot of attention.

And even if it "only" worked as well with guns as it did with drugs, it would be a great thing. There are a lot more stoners in Colorado than there used to be, because it's easier to get the stuff. If we could cut the number of mass shootings by only a small percentage, count me in.

 

[Cheetah]

Why is it so inconceivable that they legitimately view firearm ownership as a right and have fundamental different ideas from you on safety?

Not inconceivable at all, it is a fact, some people really do think that.
The inconceivable bit is why they think that, it makes no sense at all, to me at least.

 

[Zivan]

I saw some of the organizers of March for Our Lives on Fox News tonight. I've got a good feeling about them. What they say they're going to do is to brand politicians who take NRA money. Interesting approach. We'll see what they can do.

They were followed by Rush Limbaugh. The kids are naïve, and guns aren't the problem, and ......all the same stuff. I think this time is different. I don't know.

It does feel different this time, but I don't think Republicans can be shamed into passing legislation. Sociopaths aren't persuaded with shame. Maybe, however, this movement will effect the 2018 elections so that Republicans lose power and Democrats can get some legislations passed.

I sincerely hope this time is different, it feels that way to me too.

These kids are obviously passionate about the issue, and rightly so. They have done their research and know exactly who the NRA backed people in Congress are. And they have good organizers for the planned marches backing them.

Many of them will be 18 years old by Nov and will vote against those politicians who think "guns are not the problem". These kids have personally seen the dead and injured bodies of their friends. Killed by guns. They will never forget that, and no pro-gun rhetoric will erase those memories.

 

[Zivan]

Why is it so inconceivable that they legitimately view firearm ownership as a right and have fundamental different ideas from you on safety?

Why is it so inconceivable that these kids legitimately view firearms as a threat to their lives (their friends are DEAD and they saw them being KILLED by a firearm) and they want the RIGHT to LIVE and have fundamental different ideas from you on safety?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Many of them will be 18 years old by Nov and will vote against those politicians who think "guns are not the problem".

Not a chance. Politicians know that statistically none of them are going to vote. Young people don't vote, ergo they are wasted political capital. The kids will march, they'll protests, they'll organize walkouts and retweet tweets and share memes and they'll say they'll vote but history has taught us that come Nov... they won't. They'll barely vote in the Presidential election, even less in the midterm, and on the state and local level they will be statistically zero.

 

[a_unique_person]

If guns are the issue, why didn't we have this problem 40 years ago? Guns were just as available then.
Guns were the same back then but they weren't used to kill classmates.

The gun of choice now appears to be the AR15.

 

[Zivan]

Not a chance. Politicians know that statistically none of them are going to vote. Young people don't vote, ergo they are wasted political capital. The kids will march, they'll protests, they'll organize walkouts and retweet tweets and share memes and they'll say they'll vote but history has taught us that come Nov... they won't. They'll barely vote in the Presidential election, even less in the midterm, and on the state and local level they will be statistically zero.

They will vote. This is a life or death issue. Literally.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Why is it so inconceivable that these kids legitimately view firearms as a threat to their lives (their friends are DEAD and they saw them being KILLED by a firearm) and they want the RIGHT to LIVE and have fundamental different ideas from you on safety?

It is completely conceivable to me. I take their reasons at face value and don't imply they have mental illness, are bribed, or have some secret motive.

 

[JoeMorgue]

They will vote. This is a life or death issue. Literally.

Errrrr okay. So why this time and not the last 20 school shootings? We had spree killings right before the last election (and pretty much every election since we're pretty much always having spree killings) and it didn't matter.

Your "this feels different this time" argument doesn't cut it

We've a Republican majority government right now and an entire year before even the Midterms. This will pass and be old news by the time the election rolls around.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

I've seen this sentiment a couple times in this thread now. Is there any evidence that if guns were illegal, that illegal gun dealers would vet the people they sell to? Drugs are illegal now, and drug dealers pretty much sell to anyone who has the cash, no questions asked. Would that be different w/ guns?

By looking at the rest of the western world?
Not to mention, if it becomes harder to own a gun, and illegal in many cases then when the police got hints about the last shooter they could have used his possession of a gun as a reason to arrest him, take away the weapons and maybe get him professional help.
Sure, it infringes on his liberty, but it would have prevented him using his liberty to murder many others.

 

[Civet]

We've a Republican majority government right now and an entire year before even the Midterms. This will pass and be old news by the time the election rolls around.

That's my guess. Then again maybe one of the spree killings the month before the midterms will be nasty enough to move the needle. Of course that can move the needle with the anti-gun control voters as well.

 

[JoeMorgue]

The gun of choice now appears to be the AR15.

Not really.

AR-15 are used in high profile mass killings, but in raw numbers cheap handgns are still the biggest issue.

In 2011 (the last year the FBI broke it down by weapon type or at least the most recent I could find) of the 8,583 firearm deaths in America only 323 were committed by "rifles." Both shotguns (356) and by far, far handguns (6,220) outnumbered them. (97 were listed as other/not specified if anyone is wondering where the gap came from.)

But we also in the same year had 1,694 killed with knives, 496 with blunt objects, 728 just literally beat to death with no weapons involved at all, and the list goes on.

Take any one random class of weapon away and America's murder rate is still gonna be double that of any comparable country. Hell in most cases each category is more than other countries have total murders.

 

[Zivan]

Errrrr okay. So why this time and not the last 20 school shootings? We had spree killings right before the last election (and pretty much every election since we're pretty much always having spree killings) and it didn't matter.

Your "this feels different this time" argument doesn't cut it

We've a Republican majority government right now and an entire year before even the Midterms. This will pass and be old news by the time the election rolls around.

Rosa Parks----The Civil Rights Movement.

Vietnam War----student protests.

Every change has a "first time". It has to start somewhere, some time.

Why not now?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

The AR 15 is iconic as the weapon of the Good Guys, just like the AK-47 is the go-to Bad Guy gun: there would be much less pushback to banning semi-automatic versions of the Kalashnikov because of its image.

 

[erlando]

Not a chance. Politicians know that statistically none of them are going to vote. Young people don't vote, ergo they are wasted political capital. The kids will march, they'll protests, they'll organize walkouts and retweet tweets and share memes and they'll say they'll vote but history has taught us that come Nov... they won't. They'll barely vote in the Presidential election, even less in the midterm, and on the state and local level they will be statistically zero.

And even if they do the american system of tallying votes ensures that most of their votes will be worthless.

 

[This is The End]

Why is it so inconceivable that these kids legitimately view firearms as a threat to their lives (their friends are DEAD and they saw them being KILLED by a firearm) and they want the RIGHT to LIVE and have fundamental different ideas from you on safety?

That would be like hiding all the forks because you eat too much cake. Instead of, you know, actually dealing with the cake.

This "blame the guns" stuff is a nonsensical knee jerk reaction by people who have no clue exactly how these tragic situations play out.

 

[MikeG]

That would be like hiding all the forks because you eat too much cake. Instead of, you know, actually dealing with the cake.

This "blame the guns" stuff is a nonsensical knee jerk reaction by people who have no clue exactly how these tragic situations play out.

Tosh, tosh and bollocks. A country awash with freely available guns but the same level of mental health issues as elsewhere on the planet has school shootings on a weekly basis, and massacres with terrible regularity.........and no other country does. The only difference is guns. How many people would have died if this loser in California didn't have access to a gun?

Fingers-in-the-ears "don't blame the guns" nonsense is contemptible and nauseating. This is the very attitude which enabled the killing of 17 kids last week.

 

[Civet]

That would be like hiding all the forks because you eat too much cake. Instead of, you know, actually dealing with the cake.

This "blame the guns" stuff is a nonsensical knee jerk reaction by people who have no clue exactly how these tragic situations play out.

Please elaborate on this part. What information about how these situations play out do you feel has been missing from the discussion?

 

[thaiboxerken]

MikeG is correct. If access to guns was harder, things like this would happen less often. The shooting happened because a white supremacist terrorist was allowed to buy a gun and all the ammo. I highly doubt he would have tried the same thing armed with only a knife, and even if he did, the casualties would have been low, if any at all. Guns make it very easy to kill while staying relatively safe from the victim's retaliation.