School shooting Florida

[MikeG]

Police officers here go into schools every now and then to do a presentation on traffic safety, the work of the emergency services, and so on, but that's it. The thought of having a police officer assigned to a school and permanently on the premises is bizarre to Brits.

 

[3point14]

Wouldn't a combat trained person be less likely to go in unsupported and unprepared, I thought the were trained not to be such heroes?

By 'combat trained' do you mean 'has watched Die Hard'?

That's the 'how to' manual, isn't it?

 

[Darat]

By 'combat trained' do you mean 'has watched Die Hard'?

That's the 'how to' manual, isn't it?

It would seem to be for some people.

The reason for my comments is that I've read a few books on the more recent conflicts (Afghanistan, Kuwait, DS23 etc.) and within them they've discussed how training has changed in light of the wars etc. that are being fought today and one of the areas that stuck in memory was much more emphasis on the value of individual soldiers and therefore their safety and what is considered reasonable risk in a combat situation.

When I was reading responses to the apparent "cowardice" of the deputy that came to mind when people stated he was a combat veteran as if this made it less understandable why he didn't enter the building as the shooting was happening. It may be that his combat experience and training make it more understandable as to why he didn't enter the building on his own.

 

[3point14]

I have a question:

How sanitised is the reporting in the US media. How explicit are the pictures of bodies leaving the school?

Do you think unsanitising them might have an effect on the US consciousness?

 

[Andy_Ross]

You are no use to anyone if you are a casualty.

 

[Nessie]

I am sure this applies;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

"Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981) is an oft-quoted[2] District of Columbia Court of Appeals case that held that the police do not owe a specific duty to provide police services to citizens based on the public duty doctrine."

I am sure that applies to security guards as well.

 

[3point14]

The following companies have cut ties with the NRA over the last 24 hours.

Enterprise, Wyndham, Metlife,Hertz, Best Western, First National Bank, Alamo, National, Symantec, Chubb and SIRVA

If this serves to accelerate the control of firearms in the US then it's probably a damning indictment of the state of democracy.

 

[Nessie]

Police officers here go into schools every now and then to do a presentation on traffic safety, the work of the emergency services, and so on, but that's it. The thought of having a police officer assigned to a school and permanently on the premises is bizarre to Brits.

It is more than that as many schools have police schools liaison officers, so specific officers are attached to schools, they may cover more than one school, but it is their permanent job. Some schools even provide offices and the police are a regular presence.

https://www.cheshire.police.uk/advi...y/safer-schools-and-young-people-partnership/

https://www.dyfed-powys.police.uk/e.../the-all-wales-school-liaison-core-programme/

 

[cullennz]

Does any one else find it quite funny they make up cuddly names for dudes with guns at schools.

It's like the govt is too embarrassed to call them what they are because it's so ridiculous they are needed

 

[cullennz]

Sorry

Didn't see 3point14's post

I agree

 

[Parsman]

It is more than that as many schools have police schools liaison officers, so specific officers are attached to schools, they may cover more than one school, but it is their permanent job. Some schools even provide offices and the police are a regular presence.

https://www.cheshire.police.uk/advi...y/safer-schools-and-young-people-partnership/

https://www.dyfed-powys.police.uk/e.../the-all-wales-school-liaison-core-programme/

Yes but that is really an outreach role, not one of law enforcement or protection. The assumption isn't that this officer may at some point have to tackle an attacker or criminal but that he should make police familiar to students at a time when foot patrols in their towns or suburbs might have decreased.

 

[Darat]

Yes but that is really an outreach role, not one of law enforcement or protection. The assumption isn't that this officer may at some point have to tackle an attacker or criminal but that he should make police familiar to students at a time when foot patrols in their towns or suburbs might have decreased.

Yes they are not there to provide any form of security for the school.

 

[Nessie]

Yes but that is really an outreach role, not one of law enforcement or protection. The assumption isn't that this officer may at some point have to tackle an attacker or criminal but that he should make police familiar to students at a time when foot patrols in their towns or suburbs might have decreased.

You make it sound like if there was information a kid was carrying a knife in a school or there was a fight whilst a police liaison officer was on the premises, they would not be involved.

The primary role is outreach, but it is also guard, watch and patrol, to preserve life and protect property. That part does not stop at the school gate.

 

[Nessie]

Yes they are not there to provide any form of security for the school.

So, how come as a schools liaison officer I attended a few incidents and stood by when there was a risk of violence with particular pupils? How come I have warned a few people about being seen on school premises, where they were seeking out another pupil over a dispute?

What about schools where there is problems with gang violence? What about child protection measures and information a parent may breach an order not to approach a child at school?

 

[P.J. Denyer]

I'm sorry, you lost me.

From context I'd guess it's a concern that there's too much segregation of students by age (presumably at meals, breaks etc) and that this is hampering the natural social developement that comes from mixing with, and imitating older children.

 

[Darat]

So, how come as a schools liaison officer I attended a few incidents and stood by when there was a risk of violence with particular pupils? How come I have warned a few people about being seen on school premises, where they were seeking out another pupil over a dispute?

What about schools where there is problems with gang violence? What about child protection measures and information a parent may breach an order not to approach a child at school?

What about that?

 

[Nessie]

What about that?

Your claim police do not provide security for schools. They do at times. There are also jobs for security guards at UK schools;

https://www.indeed.co.uk/cmp/optimu...icer-d8ae1cec6b695fdd?q=School+Security+Staff

"School security Officer
Optimum Group Partnerships Ltd - London
£8.30 - £8.50 an hour - Contract

Optimum Group Partnerships Ltd is looking for a vibrant and energetic security guard who is confident and an excellent team player, the candidate should be firm and has good knowledge within the security industry as well as experienced in dealing with school children. Applicants should be very flexible and live locally in the North London area or should be able to commute easily to Haringey..."

 

[Bob001]

I am sure this applies;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

"Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981) is an oft-quoted[2] District of Columbia Court of Appeals case that held that the police do not owe a specific duty to provide police services to citizens based on the public duty doctrine."

I am sure that applies to security guards as well.

The guy was an armed county sheriff, a sworn law enforcement officer no different from the police, with 30 years of experience. And that court decision -- which wouldn't necessarily carry any weight in Florida -- was about whether the police have a duty to protect any particular person, not whether they can choose not to perform their duty generally as police officers.

The trial judges held that the police were under no specific legal duty to provide protection to the individual plaintiffs and dismissed the complaints. In a 2-1 decision, the District of Columbia Court of Appeals determined that Warren, Taliaferro, and Nichol were owed a special duty of care by the police department and reversed the trial court rulings. In a unanimous decision, the court also held that Douglas failed to fit within the class of persons to whom a special duty was owed and affirmed the trial court's dismissal of her complaint. The case was reheard by an en banc panel of the District of Columbia Court of Appeals, and the defendant (District of Columbia) prevailed.

The case was about the police department failing to respond properly to a 911 call, starting with the dispatcher. That just can't be used to justify or rationalize a cop sitting outside a school where screaming children are being murdered.

 

[Darat]

Your claim police do not provide security for schools. They do at times. There are also jobs for security guards at UK schools;

https://www.indeed.co.uk/cmp/optimu...icer-d8ae1cec6b695fdd?q=School+Security+Staff

"School security Officer
Optimum Group Partnerships Ltd - London
£8.30 - £8.50 an hour - Contract

Optimum Group Partnerships Ltd is looking for a vibrant and energetic security guard who is confident and an excellent team player, the candidate should be firm and has good knowledge within the security industry as well as experienced in dealing with school children. Applicants should be very flexible and live locally in the North London area or should be able to commute easily to Haringey..."

Your pedantic points are just that. Yes I am certain you are correct that some times in some schools there have been some that have had police protection.

Happy?

Now to continue on, we do not have serving police officers embedded in schools to provide security as the USA does in some schools.

Happy?

 

[Darat]

From context I'd guess it's a concern that there's too much segregation of students by age (presumably at meals, breaks etc) and that this is hampering the natural social developement that comes from mixing with, and imitating older children.

Hasn't that always happened? My infant and junior school segregated us based on age and gender, infants and girls had one playground*, 1st to 3rd year juniors had another and finally the 4th and 5th years had another. We also had different dinner times, cloakrooms and toilets.


*playground in this context meant the tarmac or concrete patches around the school building. Broken bones and heads smashed into concrete along with full thickness skin scrapes were considered character building not a health and safety issue.