School shooting Florida

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Meadmaker said:
And apparently there was a "good guy with a gun", an armed security guard, actually present at the school. He didn't stop the bad guy with a gun.

He did lose his job.
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Yeah, but he was evidently a coward so not really a "good guy"....
 
Civet said:
To be honest I don't know that I would either. I'd like to think I would, but that's easy to say when I've never been in a similar situation. That said, I think a person should take a very hard look at himself before deciding to pursue or remain in a career where running to that sort of danger is part of the job.
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He did. He resigned.
 
The right to own a gun does not figure in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Why? Because it is not a basic human right, and cannot be derived directly from the foundational postulates of democracy.

The 2ndA is an anachronism. Not related to human rights, and not amenable to argument from first principle. As it was established, it can be abolished, on the same grounds: a vote.

And that's about it.
 
quadraginta said:
A typical school corridor wall is going to be rated for 1 hr. fire protection, and if it is a standard stud wall with sheetrock that means it will have 1 layer of 5/8" sheetrock on each side. That wouldn't even slow down a round from an AR15 noticeably.
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It will go straight through a wall like that and wound or even kill you if you were standing on the other side. The only way that an AR-15 round might be stopped in that wall is if it hits stud or a dwang.


For William Parcher's further education....



AR-15 5.56 cal from 10 feet... through 22 pieces of 5/8" drywall, stopped by the 23rd
 
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Civet said:
To be honest I don't know that I would either. I'd like to think I would, but that's easy to say when I've never been in a similar situation. That said, I think a person should take a very hard look at himself before deciding to pursue or remain in a career where running to that sort of danger is part of the job.
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I found a document on "The Police Response to Active Shooter Incidents". It is 4 years old, and I suspect that this is an area where policies change rapidly, but while it says that different departments have different policies on solo entry, it stressed countless times that it is extremely dangerous. That most polices want an initial contact team to be at least 4 officers, and that the school resource officer, because he knows the layout of the school, is an invaluable part of that contact team allowing teams to engage the shooter much quicker if that officer is a part of it (which, of course, excepts the ones who go on heroic suicide missions, because apparently that is expected of them).

This seems like little more than the NRA deflecting the blame away from the mass killing devices they are doing their best to ensure continue to flood the US.
 
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smartcooky said:
It will go straight through a wall like that and wound you if you were standing on the other side. The only way that an AR-15 round will be stopped in that wall is if it hits stud or a dwang.
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The wall you are quoting wouldn't meet acoustic standards in schools in the UK by many a long mile. If someone farted in the corridor you'd hear it in the classroom. I suspect that fire-rating wouldn't be the critical factor in the design of such a wall, and that at the least it would be filled with insulation. Even that wouldn't bring it into compliance here, or get it anywhere near.
 
Dread Pirate Roberts said:
Out here in Vegas, I had to bring my kids something a few times. Just walked into the building via the main door, then walked into the office to drop it off. They weren't closed or locked. And the main door opens to a large open area and the cafeteria. It's a little scary, really. If someone just stormed in there at lunchtime, there would literally be hundreds of kids within 50 feet of the door completely exposed. Maybe that's changed in a couple of years, but I had to drop off something for my girlfriend a couple of weeks ago at her middle school and it was open as well.

The only time something like a metal detector wand was ever used were in certain schools while going to sporting events.
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I can't tell you how sad your "it's a little scary" makes me feel.
 
BobTheCoward said:
Under certain conditions it would be



If the Spears were taken for the purposes of inflicting mental harm on the Maasai then it is genocide.
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Not even you can believe that taking guns from US residents is genocide, even if these residents like to possess guns.

I don't know the answer to this, but when was the last time a Maasai spearman used his spear to slaughter a large number of children belonging to his own people and community?
 
dudalb said:
Thanks for proving my point.......
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Well it "proved" your point was empty lol ... you don't have a point if you say the reason we can't adopt more restrictive guns laws similar to the UK is because we just don't want to! And you don't have a point when you claim that a bolt action rifle is not also a lethal weapon that can very easily be used to kill people.

It does highlight one genuine point though - it shows just how dishonest and delusional the arguments of the pro-gun lobby people are in the US when they keep making all manner of transparently dishonest excuses for why they need such free access to own loaded guns to fire all over the place.
 
One thing's for certain: student's are in a lot of trouble in any case: the focus should be on giving them the best education possible, not just to let them survive.
Compared to other countries, US students are going to fall further and further behind.
 
quadraginta said:
Can you seriously imagine a cop ordering someone to show him their ID, and then shooting them when they reach for it?

It's alright if you can't imagine it, because you don't need to imagine.

Just read the news.

Considering the sort of behavior cops have exhibited dealing with kids in schools even when there isn't live weapons fire going on, I don't have the least difficulty imagining a cop shooting someone who challenges his supremacy (or even seems to) when there is.

And to make matters worse, this was a high school. Cops don't view high school students as "kids". They view them as probable thugs who just happen to be going to school.
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I'm wondering what's going to happen when the SWAT officers enter a school and see two adults running after a fleeing kid, do they shoot the adults or the kid?
 
dudalb said:
Name me a society in which entertainment with lots of violence has NOT been popular....
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I'd be amazed if there was one.

What I find most thought provoking is not the violence but the fact that we are happy for our kids to watch the violence but not the sex.

I know which one I'd rather do, but we seem to promote the less fun one to our kids.
 
BobTheCoward said:
I don't care if you want US gun ownership rates to go from over 20% to 2%. I just don't like the language that a 90% reduction in gun owners means it is still easy to get a gun. Imagine if someone said it was still easy to get onto Medicaid after implementing policies that reduced members by 90%. (That actually sounds a lot like something Trump would say).
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Not being "still easy" doesn't constitute a ban, as I'm sure you know. You're moving the goalposts.

Anyway, why should it be "easy" for an insane teenager to buy a self loading rifle?
 
smartcooky said:
You are approaching this from the point of view of a person confident with guns; you are already capable, so you can't see another viewpoint, and cannot understand that you cannot simply give some teachers some guns and expect them to do the job... and in any case.... ITS NOT THEIR JOB!!!

It would be like me handing a person who has never played golf before (I play off a 3 handicap) a ball, tee and driver, and expecting them to tee up the ball and drive it 300 yds dead straight down the middle of the fairway, and then being astonished when they cannot do it.

Shooting accurately is a skill that is difficult to master
Shooting accurately at living people is an even more difficult skill to master (both physically and mentally).
Shooting accurately at living people such that you don't shoot any of the people you are trying to save is a skill that only a tiny percentage of the population will ever master.

Besides which, your "good guy with a gun", the teacher, is going to be the first target of the shooter. take out the teachers, and the opposition has gone.
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You missed out shooting while getting shot at, which raises the difficulty by a large factor, I imagine.
 
Wayward son said:
Perhaps he thought that as a single officer, probably armed with a handgun, going up against the gunman (or gunmen - I doubt he knew) armed with an AR15 would be a suicide mission. We can all sit in our comfortable homes and say that he should have gone in there and sacrificed his life so people in a society so insane that they let almost anyone obtain those mass-murder devices would feel a little more comfortable and safe with the insane situation they have created.
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Does this mean that schoolteachers should be armed with AR15s and not handguns?
 
Dread Pirate Roberts said:
Out here in Vegas, I had to bring my kids something a few times. Just walked into the building via the main door, then walked into the office to drop it off. They weren't closed or locked. And the main door opens to a large open area and the cafeteria. It's a little scary, really. If someone just stormed in there at lunchtime, there would literally be hundreds of kids within 50 feet of the door completely exposed. Maybe that's changed in a couple of years, but I had to drop off something for my girlfriend a couple of weeks ago at her middle school and it was open as well.

The only time something like a metal detector wand was ever used were in certain schools while going to sporting events.
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No doors are locked on danish schools anywhere. Noone is scared about that. You know why? Because there's no need to be scared.
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/columbine-armed-guards_n_2347096

"Columbine High School Had Armed Guard During Massacre In 1999

...Deputy Neil Gardner was a 15-year veteran of the Jefferson County, Colo., Sheriff’s Office assigned as the uniformed officer at Columbine. According to an account compiled by the police department, Gardner fired on Harris but was unsuccessful in stopping him..."

So, not a deterrent. The pupil mounting the attack will know who their guard is, where they tend to hang out and so will also have the advantage of surprise.

Now, how do you find teachers who are good guys with a gun.....?
 
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