School shooting Florida

[BobTheCoward]

It "sure feels" like a ban, eh? We can't have that can we?

I don't care if you want US gun ownership rates to go from over 20% to 2%. I just don't like the language that a 90% reduction in gun owners means it is still easy to get a gun. Imagine if someone said it was still easy to get onto Medicaid after implementing policies that reduced members by 90%. (That actually sounds a lot like something Trump would say).

 

[Reheat]

But the fact is that with only its membership fees the NRA couldn't do much political campaigning.

So Cresenet is right.

Do say. I don't know that anyone said they only collected membership fees for revenue. They get donations from members too. Guess that make them an arm of their members, huh...

 

[Bob001]

Duh, the firearms and sporting goods industry gives $$ to the NRA for both advertising and other activities they support. What a shock that an industry would promote it's products via $$ and donates to an organization that members of the NRA purchase and support said products. That does not make them an "arm" of the gun industry. In addition, much of the information in that article comes from the Violence Policy Center better known as the Brady Bunch. I trust their word less than that of "Bagdad Bob".

The NRA is more than a political organization. They support training and recreation program for many youth programs to include gun safety and marksmanship training.

Contrary to the crap that is being spread here the NRA's real power stems from VOTES.

So this isn't true? Or you just don't like it?

Since 2005, the gun industry and its corporate allies have given between $20 million and $52.6 million to it through the NRA Ring of Freedom sponsor program. Donors include firearm companies like Midway USA, Springfield Armory Inc, Pierce Bullet Seal Target Systems, and Beretta USA Corporation. Other supporters from the gun industry include Cabala's, Sturm Rugar & Co, and Smith & Wesson.

The NRA also made $20.9 million — about 10 percent of its revenue — from selling advertisingto industry companies marketing products in its many publications in 2010, according to the IRS Form 990.

Additionally, some companies donate portions of sales directly to the NRA. Crimson Trace, which makes laser sights, donates 10 percent of each sale to the NRA. Taurus buys an NRA membership for everyone who buys one of their guns. Sturm Rugar gives $1 to the NRA for each gun sold, which amounts to millions. The NRA's revenues are intrinsically linked to the success of the gun business.

The NRA Foundation also collects hundreds of thousands of dollars from the industry, which it then gives to local-level organizations for training and equipment purchases.

The NRA promotes the gun industry, and the gun industry pays it a lot to do so. And if the NRA's power comes from votes, they are the votes of ignorant, one-issue voters who have swallowed the NRA's fantasy that "the guv'mint" is gonna do something terrible to them, and they'll be able to fight back with their AR15s.

For most of its history, the NRA was truly a sportsmen's organization that promoted responsible hunting and outdoor recreation. That changed in the '70s, much for the worse for America -- but great for the gun makers and dealers.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...rverted_the_meaning_of_the_2nd_amendment.html
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-10-07/how-the-gun-lobby-rewrote-the-second-amendment
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-nra-vs-america-20130131

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So this isn't true? Or you just don't like it?


The NRA promotes the gun industry, and the gun industry pays it a lot to do so. And if the NRA's power comes from votes, they are the votes of ignorant, one-issue voters who have swallowed the NRA's fantasy that "the guv'mint" is gonna do something terrible to them, and they'll be able to fight back with their AR15s.

For most of its history, the NRA was truly a sportsmen's organization that promoted responsible hunting and outdoor recreation. That changed in the '70s, much for the worse for America -- but great for the gun makers and dealers.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...rverted_the_meaning_of_the_2nd_amendment.html
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-10-07/how-the-gun-lobby-rewrote-the-second-amendment
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-nra-vs-america-20130131

^ This bears repeating.

 

[Wayward son]

Problem with good guy with a gun is, it happens very rarely. I know about 2 cases. In both the good guy stopped the shooting. One was the Canadian parliament shooting. The other one is Sutherland Springs church shooting.

In reality you probably only 1 case, not two. The Canadian story of the good guy (who was not some bystander anyway) with a gun shooting the gunman at the parliament is mostly folk-lore (the gunman was shot and killed by the RCMP, but the truth was silenced and buried because people prefer an old guy/good guy with a gun hero story).

 

[smartcooky]

Duh, the firearms and sporting goods industry gives $$ to the NRA for both advertising and other activities they support. What a shock that an industry would promote it's products via $$ and donates to an organization that members of the NRA purchase and support said products. That does not make them an "arm" of the gun industry. In addition, much of the information in that article comes from the Violence Policy Center better known as the Brady Bunch. I trust their word less than that of "Bagdad Bob".

The NRA is more than a political organization. They support training and recreation program for many youth programs to include gun safety and marksmanship training.

Contrary to the crap that is being spread here the NRA's real power stems from VOTES.

You asked for evidence and you were provided it.

The tens of millions of dollars the gun industry gives the NRA makes the gun industry financiers for the NRA. That makes the NRA an arm of the gun industry in everything but name, and in every way that matters. No amount of handwaving, dodging, weaving and mealy mouthed weasel words can take away from this.

 

[Bob001]

Subject for discussion: Is there any possible justification for the armed deputy actually assigned to the school and on duty when the shooting started to "take cover" instead of confronting the shooter? Did he maybe think the shooter was coming outside, or what?

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. — The only armed sheriff’s deputy at a Florida high school where 17 people were killed took cover outside rather than charging into the building when the massacre began, the Broward County sheriff said on Thursday.
......
The surveillance video, which was not released, showed Deputy Peterson remained outside the west side of the building for at least four minutes while the gunman was inside, according to Sheriff Israel. The shooting rampage at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School lasted less than six minutes. The video was corroborated by witness statements, Sheriff Israel said.

The New York Times reported on Wednesday that an officer from the Coral Springs Police Department who responded to the shooting had seen Deputy Peterson in a Stoneman Douglas High parking lot. The deputy “was seeking cover behind a concrete column leading to a stairwell,” Officer Tim Burton said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/22/us/nikolas-cruz-florida-shooting.html

 

[SusanB-M1]

So much for the good guy with a gun and arming teachers.

Yes, I heard that on the news this morning. The whole thing is shocking and this news makes it doubly so.

 

[MikeG]

What is the correct way to say that you are skeptical of the claim that bullets passed through walls?

Teach me how to do skepticism correctly for that.

You find out about the construction of the walls.

You find out if walls of that construction allow the passage of the sort of ammunition from the sort of gun that was used in this case. [If the walls are drywall, that's effectively 4 sheets of paper and an inch of talcum powder. If they're lightweight aerated concrete blocks ("insulating blocks"), a nailgun can drive a 4" nail through them].

Then you use logic (virtually every bullet fired is going to make contact with walls, floors ceilings, windows or doors). Most, wouldn't you say, are likely to hit a wall, due to the killer's targets being people standing, running or crouching. So "X" number of bullets are going to hit walls. Given what you've found out about wall construction (see above), a percentage of "X" will penetrate the wall. This may vary with the angle of the bullet's path to the wall.

At this point you realise that you don't have enough data, but you accept the possiblity that bullets could have penetrated walls, and you don't go banging on about a trivial irrelevance forever.

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

Then you use logic (virtually every bullet fired is going to make contact with walls, floors ceilings, windows or doors). Most, wouldn't you say, are likely to hit a wall, due to the killer's targets being people standing, running or crouching. So "X" number of bullets are going to hit walls. Given what you've found out about wall construction (see above), a percentage of "X" will penetrate the wall. This may vary with the angle of the bullet's path to the wall.

At this point you realise that you don't have enough data, but you accept the possiblity that bullets could have penetrated walls, and you don't go banging on about a trivial irrelevance forever.

Unless, of course, you are a True Skeptic™, in which case, having climbed the hill. you defend it to the death.

 

[MikeG]

Yes, I heard that on the news this morning. The whole thing is shocking and this news makes it doubly so.

Brits are shaking their heads in bemusement at the idea that a school has an armed guard in the first place. What sort of mess is it when schools need an armed guard?

 

[Travis]

Brits are shaking their heads in bemusement at the idea that a school has an armed guard in the first place. What sort of mess is it when schools need an armed guard?

That'd be America! Where access to guns is absolute but healthcare is kept locked away for the elite.

 

[Wayward son]

Subject for discussion: Is there any possible justification for the armed deputy actually assigned to the school and on duty when the shooting started to "take cover" instead of confronting the shooter? Did he maybe think the shooter was coming outside, or what?

Perhaps he thought that as a single officer, probably armed with a handgun, going up against the gunman (or gunmen - I doubt he knew) armed with an AR15 would be a suicide mission. We can all sit in our comfortable homes and say that he should have gone in there and sacrificed his life so people in a society so insane that they let almost anyone obtain those mass-murder devices would feel a little more comfortable and safe with the insane situation they have created.

 

[erlando]

The Canadian laws seem pretty reasonable to me,,except I am not sure about universal licesing. For some weapons, yes, but having to get a licence to own a muzzle loader seems a bit much.

Why? It's still a firearm. If a licensing system is going to be effective it needs to cover all bases as to not leave loopholes.

 

[jimbob]

and can anyone blame the security guard? I certainly don't know that I would have the courage and presence of mind to charge unsupported into a confrontation with an unknown number of people with semiautomatic rifles.

 

[3point14]

Strawman argument, unless you can find a cite to support it.

Finding any cite anywhere about anything isn't actually going to change a straw-man argument into a non straw-man one. This is one of the more bizarre accusations of fallacious reasoning I've seen.

 

[Jim_MDP]

re: NRA funding (leaving aside there are two "arms" of the organization and oh yeah... Wayne is a dick)...

Industry donates two to five million a year, but hey have ~5 million members at ~$25 a year ( a bit less with multi-year, lifetime, ShootingUSA knocks off $10 for something or other, and Ruger et al only sell so many guns with free memberships), so the inndustry is only ~15% of their annual revenue.

They donate a miniscule percentage of congresscritter's received donations, so the majority of "bought" expenses are probably TV ( and some print) ads.

Ergo... not exactly "an arm of the industry" and their "power" really does lie in the ballot box (or rather, what the DC critters fear it would be).

But Wayne is still a dick.

Sent from my A463BG using Tapatalk

 

[Wayward son]

I certainly don't know that I would have the courage and presence of mind to charge unsupported into a confrontation with an unknown number of people with semiautomatic rifles.

On the off chance he was not killed by the gunman, he would have been very lucky to not get killed by the supporting police officers when they showed up and stormed in.

 

[erlando]

That's a problem that would be fairly easy to solve, at least in many buildings. Keep all doors except the main entrance locked to outside access, with alarms that would sound if opened from the inside (but still open to exit in emergencies). Keep front doors locked outside of the regular student arrival times, so visitors would have to be buzzed in from the office (which should have cameras on all the doors). That's not much different from what every movie theater does and it wouldn't cost much.

That sounds more like a prison than a school.

 

[Civet]

and can anyone blame the security guard? I certainly don't know that I would have the courage and presence of mind to charge unsupported into a confrontation with an unknown number of people with semiautomatic rifles.

To be honest I don't know that I would either. I'd like to think I would, but that's easy to say when I've never been in a similar situation. That said, I think a person should take a very hard look at himself before deciding to pursue or remain in a career where running to that sort of danger is part of the job.