School shooting Florida

[MikeG]

.....I'm making things up......

Exactly. We agree on something.

 

[quadraginta]

Here's an example of a conspiratard: New York Times publishing a story trying to convince us that this anti-gun youth movement didn't organically spring up after the Parkland shooting. They say, get this, that there were adults and organizations with money behind these students. How gullible do they think we are?

And how offensive can the NYT be? These kids survived a massacre! They were ballsy enough to stand up to their bullying we-know-best elders and organize one of the bigger national events in years while still studying in school all by themselves!! How dare the media dismiss their accomplishments with their lame conspiratard theory!!

Having read the article you cited, I have to say it did not leave me with the same impression of intent which you seem to be attributing to it.

Quite the contrary, it repeatedly emphasizes the essential motive power and contributions of the students themselves while minimizing the assistance received from more well established support groups and individuals.

In short, had it not been for the efforts and industry of the students there would have been no marches, The article made that eminently clear.

 

[pgwenthold]

When those kids actually get into power, in 30/40 years time, there may be change then.

I don't know. What happened when the Vietnam war protesters got to the age when they were in power? Bush started a war in Iraq with lots of support

 

[ponderingturtle]

I had a great idea on how to get something to attach protest signs to. We need a gun designed to hold a protest sign that way the police will not be able to take them away unlike say a dowel.

 

[Parsman]

I don't know. What happened when the Vietnam war protesters got to the age when they were in power? Bush started a war in Iraq with lots of support

Bush didn't protest the war. As far as I can see folks like him, Trump, Bolton and Romney were happy to see the "red menace" fought against, as long as they and their friends weren't the ones doing the fighting. So in that at the very least they are consistent.

 

[Dr. Keith]

This just in: No way to prevent this.

 

[pgwenthold]

Bush didn't protest the war. As far as I can see folks like him, Trump, Bolton and Romney were happy to see the "red menace" fought against, as long as they and their friends weren't the ones doing the fighting. So in that at the very least they are consistent.

But where were all the anti-war protestors? John Kerry? Lost. He was the anti-war poster child. The anti-war protestors and other baby boomers let him down. We got Bush instead

 

[Thermal]

This just in: No way to prevent this.

Rick Santorum was recently quoted as saying the student protesters should be doing something more useful, like drilling for a school shooting. And that was not from the Onion

 

[ponderingturtle]

Rick Santorum was recently quoted as saying the student protesters should be doing something more useful, like drilling for a school shooting. And that was not from the Onion

Well Rick Santorum pretty much counts as satire for simply existing right?

 

[BobTheCoward]

For those arguing that there are other causes for the US high murder rate, I think we need to get your actual stance.

How much would Australia style gun laws have to reduce the US murder (and suicide and fatal accident) rates for you to support the change?

 

[ServiceSoon]

This is a gross misrepresentation of the truth

There have been NO spree killings in Australia since Martin Bryant went whacko at Port Arthur and killed 35 people in 1996.

The 13 mass killings you refer to were...

...

Of the 13 incidents you refer to, two were knife attacks one was a vehicle attack, one was a blunt instrument attack, four were arsons and five used firearms (shotguns or handguns)

These were not spree shootings with semi-automatic assault weapons such as those used at Las vegas, Port Arthur, Sandy Hook or Parkland, and to claim they are relevant to this discussion is not only disingenuous, its frankly rude.

You claim no killing sprees have occurred in Australia after the 1996 ban and then produce a list of killing sprees that have occurred in Australia after the 1996 ban. It's a strange standard to employ that those mass shootings don't count if semi-auto firearms weren't used. I don't personally see the utility of classifying the data in that way.

 

[jimbob]

For those arguing that there are other causes for the US high murder rate, I think we need to get your actual stance.

How much would Australia style gun laws have to reduce the US murder (and suicide and fatal accident) rates for you to support the change?

Well there is circumstantial evidence that it is important, about half of all homicides involve a handgun and other guns bring the proportion towards 70%

Obviously some homicides would have been likely to have switched to a different weapon, but equally, many wouldn't.

ETA: in case you are wondering why the data stops in about 2006, that's because I initially made the graph in 2007 or 2008.

ETA2 this is US governmental data - FBI IIRC

 

[BobTheCoward]

Well there is circumstantial evidence that it is important, about half of all homicides involve a handgun and other guns bring the proportion towards 70%

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/1449450cdc9de2aa62.jpg[/qimg]

Obviously some homicides would have been likely to have switched to a different weapon, but equally, many wouldn't.

I'm not interested in the generic argument. I want the people opposed to the change to give me the actual number I need to hit to change their minds.

 

[johnny karate]

First:

Tinfoil hats will not protect you from conspiratard theories like 'populist movements organically arise and sweep across the nation and around the world in a few days without any planning or organizational structure'...

And then:

Here's an example of a conspiratard: New York Times publishing a story trying to convince us that this anti-gun youth movement didn't organically spring up after the Parkland shooting. They say, get this, that there were adults and organizations with money behind these students.

Nothing says “conspiratard theory” like linking to a mainstream media source discussing the very thing you previously alleged was being covered up.

 

[MikeG]

Well there is circumstantial evidence that it is important, about half of all homicides involve a handgun and other guns bring the proportion towards 70%

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/1449450cdc9de2aa62.jpg[/qimg]

Obviously some homicides would have been likely to have switched to a different weapon, but equally, many wouldn't.

ETA: in case you are wondering why the data stops in about 2006, that's because I initially made the graph in 2007 or 2008.

Just for the sake of clarity, you ought to be explicit about which country that graph applies to.

 

[jimbob]

For those arguing that there are other causes for the US high murder rate, I think we need to get your actual stance.

How much would Australia style gun laws have to reduce the US murder (and suicide and fatal accident) rates for you to support the change?

Just for the sake of clarity, you ought to be explicit about which country that graph applies to.

edited, and it was the US....

 

[applecorped]

Boy those gun grabbers sure are messy lot, trash left everywhere behind them after their March

 

[Ambrosia]

If gun bans save lives then the UK & Wales is doing something wrong. Spike in Homicides 6 years after handgun ban.

That's either a complete misunderstanding of statistics and how the UK figures are compiled or it's willful misrepresentation of the data. (you might also want to google Harold Shipman.)

Also why are you focusing solely on homicides. The US also has a significantly higher suicide rate than the UK or Australia for example. According to the WHO firearm suicide is one of the 2 biggest methods of suicide and should be one of the most preventable.
In 2016 in the USA there were 44 965 suicides in the US and 15 696 homicides. (2.8:1)

In the UK there were 5 965 suicides 571 homicides. (10.4:1)

There have been 13 mass killings in Australia since 1996

It kind of depends on how you define mass killing. If we use Smartcookys list of the 13 mass killings that you reference and then filter that by the gun violence archive definition:

• kills 4 or more people
• in the same general time or location

and just go with killings rather than shootings.. that trims it to eight (8) mass killings.

If we use the narrowest definition which is:

• Kills 4 or more people
• selects victims randomly(rules out gang killings or family killings)
• attacks in a public place

aka the 'government definition'

Now we are down to four (4) attacks.

Whatever way you slice this you're wrong. Ready access to firearms increases the number of homicides and suicides and, most pertinent to this thread, mass shootings.

In 2016 according to here there were four hundred and seventy seven (477) mass shootings in the US. That data is using the "more than 1 person was shot" criteria which looks to be a similar criteria for your list of 13 (which has no entries for 2016 btw)

Though lets stop arguing over semantics.

I agree to common-sense laws. [...] Common-sense laws to me include restricting access to firearms to risky individuals, require safe storage, and training standards. I'm not opposed to requiring mental evaluations for certain firearms or accessories.

Now we're getting somewhere.

If we put aside all the extreme points of view I firmly believe that most people in the US agree that there ought to be some further restrictions of firearms in the US.

The US has the 2nd amendment and a long (relatively speaking) history of gun ownership. It's possible to bring in further gun control measures that greatly reduce easy access to powerful guns, while still permitting most of the people access to a lot of guns, which could go a long way to reducing mass shootings (and possibly other homicides and suicides) in the US.

It'll never happen though until everyone sits down around the table and works out the best "common sense" approach.

I'd suggest that both the "cold dead hands" brigade and the "ban all guns brigade" were excluded from such negotiations until they grow up.

In the US and the UK and in Australia the number of homicides and suicides and mass killings is too damn high!

I don't know how we might reduce these figures in the UK. I'm open to suggestions. Increased gun control in the US I think would go some distance to reducing these deaths in the US and bringing the figures per capita more in line with other western nations.
It doesn't have to be gun control like we have in the UK or in Australia, but it'd be a good thing if the policy makers in the US could sit down and talk about some common sense regulations that could be brought in, that would make a significant difference.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Boy those gun grabbers sure are messy lot, trash left everywhere behind them after their March

So?

 

[Meadmaker]

What I love is the way the right wing yappers are putting down the Parkland survivors.

It shows that they are having an effect. They are making a difference.


By the way, lest anyone repeat some of the personal insults thrown at them, we understand that they are 17 years old. We understand that they talk like 17 year olds. We understand that some of what they say doesn't form a coherent, logical, argument. We understand that they didn't do all of this by themselves, because 17 year olds don't know how to do that sort of thing.

But above all, we understand that this issue is so simple even a child can understand it.