Sceptical view on lucid dreaming

Lucid Dreaming for Beginner by Mark McElroy
ISBN-10: 0738708879
ISBN-13: 978-0738708874

I was pretty sure I had the book but cannot find it the moment. He spoke about the REM method for communication. He talks about techniques. But all he really does is talk about using it for entertaining oneself. A kind of realistic daydreaming.

The book "Astral Travel for Beginners" by Richard Webster on pages 40 to 42 talks about lucid dreaming as a beginning point to astral travel. I now think that astral travel IS lucid dreaming.

The remote viewing that comes with lucid dreaming may have to do with the subconscious getting information on a psychic level. Thus one may be able to relate certain information correctly but not get detail correct - the mind just fills in the blanks.

I experienced a few lucid dreams that got more lucid as they went. In the last one, I could see my hands as well as pinch myself and feel pain. I looked for anything unusual but there was nothing. I had to tell myself that if I am controlling the dream then I can change it. I changed the clouds to cauliflower, and then I knew it was a dream.
 
Just an afterthought.

My lucid dreaming occurred during a period that I had central nervous sleep apnea that was getting worse. I was stopping breathing about 40 times an hour for long periods. My oxygen levels dropped to about 72 or 74 a number of times.

Is this why people on the point of death experience "out-of-body" NDEs?

Hmmm. I think I am going to try train myself to lucid dream. There may be other benefits.
 
casebro said:
Proof?
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Some studies (I have no idea how good they are) suggest that they get some details correct, but fail on specifics - such as the type and color of furniture and things in the room.

My personal proof was when I hypnotized a young girl (I was a teenager) and she could see exactly what was happening in a house a few blocks away. I am just providing some information. Take it or leave it.
 
PartSkeptic said:
Some studies (I have no idea how good they are) suggest that they get some details correct, but fail on specifics - such as the type and color of furniture and things in the room.

My personal proof was when I hypnotized a young girl (I was a teenager) and she could see exactly what was happening in a house a few blocks away. I am just providing some information. Take it or leave it.
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Since I first discovered lucid dreaming in the 70's, I have kept an eye out for actual evidence of information obtained that could not be known by the dreamer. Unfortunately is always seems to boil down to anecdotes. " I work with police departments!". "I predicted 9/11, here is a post I made on 9/12!"



For some reason when you do an actual double blind experiment, the effect seems to disappear.


Lucid dreaming, however, is quite real, just not paranormal. You can gain access to information that you obtained by normal means, but has not risen to the level of conscious awareness.
 
Can anyone speak for a method to encourage lucid dreaming? Lots of info online but can't separate the wheat from the chaff, and my last experience trying it (looking for my hands or something, I forget) led to a horrifying experience.
 
Thermal said:
Can anyone speak for a method to encourage lucid dreaming? Lots of info online but can't separate the wheat from the chaff, and my last experience trying it (looking for my hands or something, I forget) led to a horrifying experience.
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I can tell you what works for me.


1) Keep a dream journal. Train yourself to wake up just enough at the end of every cycle (every 90 minutes or so) to make a few notes so you will be able to remember the dreams in the morning and write them down. The last cycle is of course the most powerful, write down the last dream completely before getting out of bed.


2) The last things you are thinking before falling asleep will have an impact on your dreams. Think about what you want to dream about (flying, for example if you enjoy that. Also include a "trigger", something that when you dream about it, will remind you that you are dreaming. I actually do use the hand thing myself, but it can be anything. Usually when you realize you are dreaming you will just wake up rather than have a lucid dream, this is where practice and persistence comes in.
 
) The last things you are thinking before falling asleep will have an impact on your dreams. Think about what you want to dream about (flying, for example if you enjoy that. Also include a "trigger", something that when you dream about it, will remind you that you are dreaming. I actually do use the hand thing myself, but it can be anything. Usually when you realize you are dreaming you will just wake up rather than have a lucid dream, this is where practice and persistence comes in.
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This .....I can usually "program" my next day for energy or mellow with pre-sleep visualization and I'd suggest simply practice drifting off to sleep with imagery ....even of the erotic sort will lead to waking dreams for many.

Re-acquiring a dream is also possible if you surface ...you can drift back into it.
I've had some wildly vivid, textural dreams ...some images I can even recall now decades later.

The more you dwell in that inbetween wake and sleep state both before and after sleep the more you'll feel comfortable being active in them ......

I use specific imagery for energy or peaceful ...the latter swans floating on a dark lake.

Alarms, partners and stuff are really disruptive you have to be able to drift in and out and in effect it is a form of daydreaming but in my view can be unreal vivid.

Poe was an advocate of wakeful dreaming and would stay awake long periods to induce the hallucinogenic state with in which he wrote some of his works.

Some info here...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia

I find it fun and I did cure my claustrophobia with it which even as a kid gave me a very interesting view point on using the mind.

The CBC did some interesting stuff on partnered Lucid Dreaming.

http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2456855106

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/don...e-control-computers-with-our-dreams-1.4008629

I suspect with new sensitive brain wave readers there is an entire world awaiting us.

Here ya go ...blow your poor solo mind

https://www.cbc.ca/cbcdocspov/m_fea...share-a-brain-and-see-out-of-each-others-eyes
 
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Marcus said:
I can tell you what works for me.


1) Keep a dream journal. Train yourself to wake up just enough at the end of every cycle (every 90 minutes or so) to make a few notes so you will be able to remember the dreams in the morning and write them down. The last cycle is of course the most powerful, write down the last dream completely before getting out of bed.

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I can verify the efficacy of keeping a dream journal to help you remember your dreams. I did this many years ago and found it worked very well. Fortunately, I found that stopping the journal reversed the effect, as I had discovered that I did not want to remember my dreams.
 
Thermal said:
Can anyone speak for a method to encourage lucid dreaming? Lots of info online but can't separate the wheat from the chaff, and my last experience trying it (looking for my hands or something, I forget) led to a horrifying experience.
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Trying to seems to be the most important factor - tell yourself you're going to dream and control the dream.

I cheat and use chemical enhancement.
 
Pope130 said:
I can verify the efficacy of keeping a dream journal to help you remember your dreams. I did this many years ago and found it worked very well. Fortunately, I found that stopping the journal reversed the effect, as I had discovered that I did not want to remember my dreams.
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The journal does make fascinating reading though doesn't it? Just don't let your girlfriend find it, that happened to me one time.
 
Marcus said:
The journal does make fascinating reading though doesn't it? Just don't let your girlfriend find it, that happened to me one time.
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And what sort of "entertainment" were you up to?

Is sex in a lucid dream considered "cheating"? In my ordinary dreams, I get into a sexual situation and then I suddenly say "But I am married" and any hanky-panky ends right there. Darn. Even if the other IS my wife. The dream is not lucid enough for me to stop the woman from morphing.
 
PartSkeptic said:
And what sort of "entertainment" were you up to?

Is sex in a lucid dream considered "cheating"? In my ordinary dreams, I get into a sexual situation and then I suddenly say "But I am married" and any hanky-panky ends right there. Darn. Even if the other IS my wife. The dream is not lucid enough for me to stop the woman from morphing.
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I got more in trouble for regular dreams than lucid dreams. I will admit I tried to have lucid dreaming sex but was unsuccessful, woke me up every time.
 
Marcus said:
I don't buy the theory that I'm merely dreaming that I'm conscious, dreaming that I'm aware that I'm dreaming. Half the time I have so much consciousness that I can't control it, and I wake up.
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I've had a number of instances of what may be considered lucid dreams. But I wonder how much of what is termed "lucid" dreaming is nothing more than hypnogogic or hypnopompic reverie. It's a well-established fact that REM sleep is not the only time that we dream, and that we rarely remember much of what we dream, less so for earlier stages than later stages.

Most of the instances of lucid dreaming that I've had occurred in what could be considered a hypnopompic state, and most of the time if I realize I'm dreaming, I wake up shortly thereafter. I'm not entirely sure about the rest. There's one that I'm fairly certain did not fall into that state, but while I understood that I was dreaming, I had little to no control over the dream.

jakesteele said:
With that being said, I also found them to be quite draining and exhausting.
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And that's the main downside that I'm familiar with. "Lucid" dreaming seems to disrupt normal dream and sleep cycles, so the mind wakes up less rested than it would normally be.

Nakani said:
A good way to "wake up" in your dreams is to get in the habit of asking yourself, "is this a dream?", during the day and performing some kind of test to find out yes or no. Once you get in the habit of questioning your reality you will eventually ask the question and find the answer is "yes".
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This doesn't really work for everyone. I've had instances where I thought I was awake, went through all the trouble of "testing" my wakefulness, and determined that I was indeed awake, only to actually wake up some minutes later and realize that it was all a dream.

My worst example of that took place over three layers of dreaming. In one dream, I "woke up" from a dream, and thought for certain I was awake, and the world seemed fairly normal at the time. I was unable to realize I was, in fact, still dreaming. I "woke up" again, and realized that there were some qualities of the dream that were not compatible with reality, and was again convinced that I was awake, undergoing the same testing process as previously. That phase continued for some time, before I woke up for real, and could see the unrealities in the dream phase. It took me several long minutes before I was able to confirm that yes, I had in fact woken up for real that time. Still felt a little weird and unsure for most of the morning.

Not the first such "dreaming I was dreaming" experience I've had, but certainly the most complex. In each case, I was fully convinced that I was awake.

Manopolus said:
Seconded. My stepfather's cause of death on his death certificate was sleep apnea. It is quite capable of killing you. He was also drunk at the time, but I'm not so sure that's necessary. It probably was a contributing factor though, so it might be best to stay away from alcohol until you address it with a doctor. Obviously alcohol can keep you asleep when you might otherwise wake up.
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Yeah, sleep apnea is known to cause heart failure in more extreme conditions. I have a friend who has pretty extreme apnea, as in he actually stops breathing for extended periods. It's scary.
 
I trained lucid dreaming, and succeeded several times. Problem is I don't know if it really was lucid dreaming, or if I just dreamed I could control my dreams. How can you tell ?
 
It's true, most people don't remember any of the early dream cycles, maybe the last one if it is particularly vivid. That's why you have to train yourself to wake up just enough to take a couple notes, it will help you to retrieve the dreams in the morning, preferably while you are still half asleep.


It takes some work to achieve control, i.e. dictating the dream content as you are dreaming. Realizing that you are dreaming as you are waking up is not really lucid dreaming, just ordinary waking. You want to become conscious at the very start of the dream, that's what the trigger is for.



Three layers is cool, I've done that but with just 2 layers.
 
Dr.Sid said:
I trained lucid dreaming, and succeeded several times. Problem is I don't know if it really was lucid dreaming, or if I just dreamed I could control my dreams. How can you tell ?
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If you were aware that you were dreaming, but stayed in the dream, without waking up, that is a lucid dream, with or without control.
 
I must have been half asleep and dreaming because twice in the last week or so, I had a dream where I had forgotten something and it was a long way back to get it. I was able to think, this is a dream, I can just have the thing, no need to go back for it.

That's all, carry on.
 
The last lucid dream I had, I took the opportunity to eat as many cream meringues as I could. They were very tasty and not at all fattening. "This lucid state isn't going to last long, so I'll just do something quick and simple."

I can't get any technique to work for me. Sometimes I'm semi-lucid and try to steer the dream narrative, but without fail the opposite to what I want happens. "I want to be in a quiet arctic snowdrift." Boom, here's the end of your street instead.
 
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