Sceptical view on lucid dreaming

[William Parcher]

Usually in my dreams I won't even recognize that a cartoon werewolf is not an expected part of reality.

Because that part of your mind is "switched off". It's the same switched off part that would normally allow you to recognize a fake clock or a fake nose or even a fake lucid dream. Yeah, you could be fooled into thinking that you had a lucid dream when you never did.

 

[Marcus]

As far as inducing lucid dreams, I've read the thread (well, not carefully) and haven't seen mentioned the techniques that have worked for me for many years, so I'll mention them here.

As you are falling asleep, concentrate on the subject you wish to explore, as well as the goal of dreaming lucidly about it.

Establish a trigger, for example looking at your hands. Concentrate on looking at your hands while falling asleep. In the dream you will look at your hands and it will remind you that you are dreaming.

Train yourself to wake up just a little between every dream cycle and scribble some notes about the dream, just enough to remind you in the morning.


There is nothing paranormal about regular lucid dreaming, I don't subscribe to any of the woo-ish add ons.

 

[The Atheist]

There is nothing paranormal about regular lucid dreaming, I don't subscribe to any of the woo-ish add ons.

I'd say that's close to the consensus here.

 

[William Parcher]

But they don't do it constantly, and you, or at least some people, can learn to tell when they are dreaming.

It's not clear to me that people can actually consciously control thoughts during a dream and then remember doing that after waking up. What I mean is that the "experience" of having wakeful-style consciousness during a dream might be a false experience whereby your subconscious created the illusion that you were conscious. If so, it would be just another kind of dream. A dream where you see yourself as being conscious but you aren't really conscious because the whole damn scene from top-to-bottom was created by your subconscious in full dream state. There was never a "conscious observer".

Do you believe that at least some people have learnt to have lucid dreams pretty much at will, by using these techniques?

I don't really know. I'd say that there are people who are convinced that they can do this. I'm totally amazed by my dreams and hence amazed by what my subconscious mind is capable of doing. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it could fool me into thinking that I can dream lucidly.

 

[The Atheist]

It's not clear to me that people can actually consciously control thoughts during a dream and then remember doing that after waking up.

Very handy that your statement can never be disproved, since results can only ever be self-reported.

I don't really know. I'd say that there are people who are convinced that they can do this. I'm totally amazed by my dreams and hence amazed by what my subconscious mind is capable of doing. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it could fool me into thinking that I can dream lucidly.

Which would describe a lucid dream, wouldn't it?

A dream in which the dreamer appears to be an observer capable of controlling the dream?

 

[Marcus]

It's not clear to me that people can actually consciously control thoughts during a dream and then remember doing that after waking up. What I mean is that the "experience" of having wakeful-style consciousness during a dream might be a false experience whereby your subconscious created the illusion that you were conscious. If so, it would be just another kind of dream. A dream where you see yourself as being conscious but you aren't really conscious because the whole damn scene from top-to-bottom was created by your subconscious in full dream state. There was never a "conscious observer".


I don't really know. I'd say that there are people who are convinced that they can do this. I'm totally amazed by my dreams and hence amazed by what my subconscious mind is capable of doing. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it could fool me into thinking that I can dream lucidly.

I think you may be needlessly complicating this.

For example, I enjoy flying. I'm in a dream, I realize that I'm dreaming, which means I get to control the content of the dream, so I go flying. The real trick is not to wake up when you realize that you are dreaming, this happens about half the time for me.

I don't buy the theory that I'm merely dreaming that I'm conscious, dreaming that I'm aware that I'm dreaming. Half the time I have so much consciousness that I can't control it, and I wake up.

 

[Marcus]

Remembering dreams, conscious or not, is not hard either, especially the one at the end of the last sleep cycle of the night, which tends to be the most vivid. You just think about the dream as you are waking up, before you start moving around, and it sticks in your permanent memory.

 

[Manopolus]

That is pretty much sleep paralysis.

Yeah, it got to that point once or twice... where I could actually feel how my body was lying in bed and even open my eyes slightly but couldn't move other than maybe a twitch or whatever. However, a lot of the time my mind worked that into another dream situation (where I would dream of moving or getting up, but not actually do so) rather than being fully aware.

It hasn't happened in over a decade, but there was a phase where this was sort of common in my early 20s. It could be sort of terrifying while experiencing it. It didn't really bother me too much when I wasn't experiencing it after the fact though.... I thought it was kinda cool, actually.

Anyway, whenever people talk about "lucid dreaming," I tend to consider it the same sort of experience, just with a different reaction to the realization that you are dreaming.

 

[zooterkin]

Very handy that your statement can never be disproved, since results can only ever be self-reported.

Actually, we have a little more than that. Lucid dreaming has been used to research what goes on when we dream, and by use of pre-arranged signals (mostly using eye movements, IIRC) it's possible to communicate with the person having a lucid dream while they are having it. It's possible to correlate that interaction with the report of the dream afterwards. Have a look at the work of Stephen LaBerge, for example.

 

[macdoc]

As far as inducing lucid dreams, I've read the thread (well, not carefully) and haven't seen mentioned the techniques that have worked for me for many years, so I'll mention them here.

As you are falling asleep, concentrate on the subject you wish to explore, as well as the goal of dreaming lucidly about it. Establish a trigger, for example looking at your hands. Concentrate on looking at your hands while falling asleep. In the dream you will look at your hands and it will remind you that you are dreaming.

Train yourself to wake up just a little between every dream cycle and scribble some notes about the dream, just enough to remind you in the morning.

There is nothing paranormal about regular lucid dreaming, I don't subscribe to any of the woo-ish add ons.

I have specific images I invoke before sleep if I want influence wake up energy levels....

The most fascinating for me is pulling myself back into a good dream...doesn't always work and it's subject to external distraction including light levels.

It's fun, no woo, some use.

 

[jakesteele]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_LaBerge

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=034542011X/lucidityinstitute


This is the guy who more or less kicked off the whole thing or, at least, brought it front stage in society. He's a Ph.D. in Psychophysiology.

I have had many LDs in the past. I didn't try to do it or invoke it, it just started happening when I went through a couple of years of hardcore stress at ages 32-33. I started researching the phenomena and came across Laberge and the it started making sense. At first, I was powerless to do anything, but as I progressed I was able to control them to greater degrees. With me, it was a way to work out deep inner conflicts that I was not aware of on a conscious level. I also was able to master it so I could actually read in the dream and would tell myself my full name, where I lived and what the day and date were.

With that being said, I also found them to be quite draining and exhausting. Although I learned how to master them to some degree, I couldn't keep them from happening, they just came onto me whether I wanted it or not. Apparently, I worked enough stuff out, or whatever, because they finally stopped happening.

Overall, it was a fascinating experience, but 'no mas' for me at age 65.

 

[Bikewer]

Years ago, when OMNI magazine was publishing, they were doing a series of "crowd consensus" projects Where they had the readership report on various subjects, including lucid dreaming.
As I recall, about 25% of the responding readers reported at least occasional lucid dreaming, where they were able to both realize that they were dreaming, and to some degree control the dream.

My wife says she's always been able to do this. That in fact, the occasional nightmare she has occurs when she cannot control the direction of the dream.

As for myself, I've always been very thoroughly "in" the dream and have no control whatever. I do have recurring "themed" dreams. When I was younger, I had a whole series of very pleasant "flying" dreams, where I gradually got better and better at flying....
Also "fishing" dreams, where I'm always by some large body of water which seems to contain very large and rather threatening fish....
Usually, I'm just at work doing my job, but everything is very oddly altered. The university I really work at will be presented as everything from a motel 6 to a huge factory. (social commentary?)

 

[Manopolus]

My wife says she's always been able to do this. That in fact, the occasional nightmare she has occurs when she cannot control the direction of the dream.

I think that's the problem with the idea of even trying to control them for me. Some dark part of my mind sometimes conjures up images of stabbing myself in the gut when holding a knife even when I'm awake. It's not as if I'm actually contemplating it (I'm not) -- it's just a weird horror movie style of creativity I've got going on or something. It's rather disturbing sometimes.

I'm pretty sure I'd be better at conjuring up nightmares than fantasies. I guess I've read too many horror novels or something, although I never did have the same taste in movies (hate slashers, for instance -- although I will watch some of the more "supernatural" type horror flicks if they're not too bloody. I have no interest in gore as a special effect).

 

[William Parcher]

I just had a look at the Wiki page on lucid dreaming. There is a chapter on skepticism.

Some skeptics of lucid dreaming suggest that it is not a state of sleep, but of brief wakefulness, or 'micro-awakening'. Experiments by Stephen LaBerge used 'perception of the outside world' as a criterion for wakefulness while studying lucid dreamers, and their sleep state was corroborated with physiological measurements. Nonetheless, LaBerge admits the criterion is subjective.

Others point out that there is no way to prove the truth of lucid dreaming other than to ask the dreamer. According to Dr. Patrick McNamara of Boston University, there is no scientific way to know for certain that someone is dreaming other than to wake them up and ask them. Meanwhile, Professor Norman Malcolm say that the only criterion of the truth of a statement that someone has had a certain dream is the dreamer saying so. Malcolm further describes lucid dreaming as absurd and impossible, recalling as an example, "I dreamt that I realised I was dreaming, dreamt that I was affecting the course of my dream, and then dreamt that I woke myself up by telling myself to wake up."

Philosopher Norman Malcolm argued against the possibility of checking the accuracy of dream reports, pointing out that 'the only criterion of the truth of a statement that someone has had a certain dream is, essentially, his saying so'.

 

[The Atheist]

Years ago, when OMNI magazine was publishing, they were doing a series of "crowd consensus" projects Where they had the readership report on various subjects, including lucid dreaming.

I can recall reading that at the time - it's what got me started!

My wife says she's always been able to do this. That in fact, the occasional nightmare she has occurs when she cannot control the direction of the dream.

That's interesting. I encourage nightmares because I can usually control them.

I had a really vivid one a few weeks back where I was able to change a terrifying dream into a bizarre slapstick. It doesn't always work and I've woken in a few cold sweats, but generally I can turn the tables on my mind.

 

[Marcus]

I can recall reading that at the time - it's what got me started!



That's interesting. I encourage nightmares because I can usually control them.

I had a really vivid one a few weeks back where I was able to change a terrifying dream into a bizarre slapstick. It doesn't always work and I've woken in a few cold sweats, but generally I can turn the tables on my mind.

Lucid dreaming can be an effective treatment for people with intractable nightmares, it's one of the few real world uses for the technique.

 

[Minoosh]

Yeah, it got to that point once or twice... where I could actually feel how my body was lying in bed and even open my eyes slightly but couldn't move other than maybe a twitch or whatever.

The paralysis feeling happens to me under a heated or very heavy blanket. I realize I am dreaming and try to lift my hand to "switch on" a light - in a way, switching off the dream - but can't move my hand. I learned to recognize this as a dream and sort of launch myself out of it with what feels like a physical effort, like surfacing from underwater. There can be false awakenings, followed by a real awakening, but I have to make a conscious effort to stay awake - if I slip "under" too soon I am back in the same dream.

I confronted the bad guy in a lucid nightmare - that particular nightmare did not return.

I've had very healing dream experiences but they weren't connected with lucidity that I can tell.

Richard Feynman has an amusing anecdote about lucid dreaming. He's walking the length of a train and passes through a car containing three bathing beauties. He realizes he's dreaming and turns back to the car - but it now contains three old men playing violins!

 

[Minoosh]

IIRC: Feynman played around with lucid dreams for the entertainment value, but eventually it lost its charms. He once "felt" conscious, while lying in bed with his head propped against an iron bed rail. He then felt the back of his head turn to mush and begin conforming with the contours of the bed rail. At this point he realized he was dreaming and got - again IIRC - faintly annoyed. Trying to identify and influence dream states while in them got to be a hassle.

He did though experiment with inducing non-pharmaceutical hallucinations. He mostly abstained from alcohol, because one day it popped into his head that a drink would be swell - but it was outside any context he associated with pleasurable drinking. This alarmed him and if he is to be believed he stayed away from booze after that. He experimented with sensory deprivation tanks and found that he would begin disassociating, or hallucinating, a few minutes faster if he smoked marijuana. However, it still happened without the pot, and I think he was fundamentally more interested in the workings of his mind without the exogenous chemical interference.

I think dreaming may be passing awareness of miscellaneous scraps of brain "code" being flushed away during sleep. The scraps of code being, maybe, the biochemical correlates of stream-of-consciousness thought. Their seeming coherence may be imposed by some neurological "narrator" trying to piece together the scraps. That the brain flushes itself with cerebrospinal fluid during sleep is backed by science, but I'm not sure about the "scraps of code" theory.

The guy on Wikipedia who dismisses lucid dreaming as "absurd" and "impossible" is a philosophy professor. Though we can't directly read another person's dreams, people describing the experience seem to be talking about the same phenomenon. Yes, it's subjective and anecdotal, yet there is some consistency about the anecdotes.

 

[Marcus]

I understand that for a person who has never experienced lucid dreaming, there is no solid evidence of it even existing, it's just anecdotes.

If you are a person who has them though, it's no longer a matter of anecdote, it's personal experience, not the same thing at all.

Ha, I suppose that's what a believer in astral travel, or its modern counterpart "remote viewing" would say, and I don't believe in those for a second. All I can say is, lucid dreaming is purely a matter of brain chemistry, of internal experience, while remote viewing makes paranormal claims.

 

[Modified]

I understand that for a person who has never experienced lucid dreaming, there is no solid evidence of it even existing, it's just anecdotes.

If you are a person who has them though, it's no longer a matter of anecdote, it's personal experience, not the same thing at all.

I have had them, and I don't question that they are real. The thing is, you don't have your full faculties while dreaming. You're basically a much less intelligent version of yourself. For example, many times in my dreams I've wondered whether it was a dream or not, examined the scenery, and came to the conclusion that it was not a dream, but this was just after popping from one location to another, seeing myself from outside, etc. If any of those things happened while I was awake, I'd be fairly certain I had been drugged. So lucid dreaming might allow me to do all kinds of cool things in my dreams, but I don't think I'd get much real enjoyment out of it.