Sceptical view on lucid dreaming

[MostlyHarmless]

Use the "advanced search" function and the Google search of the forum option.

Search for "lucid dream" with speech marks and quite a few threads pop up. Work your way through them - if there's any reliable information, it's likely to be in one of them.

I will certainly check it out. Thanks!

 

[Carn]

@macdoc
You're answereing whom?

Sleep walking, sleep paralysis, and lucid dreaming are caused by brain function errors.

If it is a brain function error, can it then still be true, that some techniques increase the likelihood of having lucid dreams?
And why do you think it is a brain function error?

If all of your dreaming was lucid then it would actually interfere with the normal function of your brain. However, what you describe is only during the last dream stage so losing that time is not going to have much effect on brain function.

Evidence? In what way would it interfere?

 

[barehl]

The idea is in a science forum

There are scientists today who insist that people can have multiple personalities as well. That's impossible but belief in wishful thinking can be powerful. Steve Harvey had a guest who claimed that dreams tapped into the "collective unconscious". That is impossible as well, but, again it doesn't stop people from believing it.

I find it useful, Poe found it useful, many others find it useful or just plain fun ....it has supporting literature in the science community. I could care less what your unsupported opinion is of something you clearly know nothing about. It's not skepticism...it's just everyday ignorance.

I find it more than a bit amusing that you first give your opinion (as though it is important) and then dismiss mine (as though it is not). Self contradiction is certainly a peculiar tactic for argument. Why would I know nothing about it? I've done it before. You might try explaining in detail how you feel it is useful.

 

[barehl]

If it is a brain function error, can it then still be true, that some techniques increase the likelihood of having lucid dreams?

Yes, just as some medications can increase the chances of sleepwalking, sleep paralysis, or nightmares. This is well established.

And why do you think it is a brain function error?

People don't normally sleep walk because it is hazardous; those who did in the past tended to die early. Sleep paralysis isn't normal because it doesn't serve any purpose. I've had sleep paralysis and my late wife was a sleep walker. I know what the brain is doing during dreaming; that's a normal function. Lucid dreaming is not the same. To be honest, I hadn't planned on talking about lucid dreaming but I suppose if I remember it I'll put it in a discussion chapter.

BTW, I have no idea why someone would link to articles that agree with me and then claim that I'm ignorant of the topic. For example, this article Lucid Dreaming: A State of Consciousness with Features of Both Waking and Non-Lucid Dreaming matches what I've said. The conscious activity does not normally appear when dreaming. Having a hybrid state is because of an error.

Evidence? In what way would it interfere?

This would get a little complicated. Do you know anything about the inhibition system in the brain? Malfunctions in this system can cause things like Tourette syndrome. Is someone now going to claim that Tourette syndrome or maybe Parkinson's disease are a way to unlock hidden potential and increase creativity?

 

[Carn]

Yes, just as some medications can increase the chances of sleepwalking, sleep paralysis, or nightmares. This is well established.

But medications obviously can effect brain chemistry; lucid dreaming techniques (at least i know of) only consist of mental activities like imaging to "roll out of your body"; thats stupid, but it is not obvious how it imaging certain things can lead to brain error.

(Though i do not exclude it; if someone spent 12 hours a day watching gore movies, it might influence his mental health.)

People don't normally sleep walk because it is hazardous; those who did in the past tended to die early. Sleep paralysis isn't normal because it doesn't serve any purpose. I've had sleep paralysis and my late wife was a sleep walker. I know what the brain is doing during dreaming; that's a normal function. Lucid dreaming is not the same.

But that something is beside the evolutionary developed "normal" is not in itself evidence that it is harmful. Evolution tends to get rid of traits that diminish the chance for producing viable offspring; if alternatives A and B are equal in that respect, it still does not mean that both A and B will be present, it might be a population is pure A, pure B or a mix of.

I think one could only conclude that lucid dreaming is not vastly advantageous over normal dreaming, evolution would have gotten rid of normal dreaming long ago.

This would get a little complicated. Do you know anything about the inhibition system in the brain?

No.

Do you have an idea whether/which negative effects might happen if a person regularly does the following:
- alarm clock set to wake after 4-7 hours of sleep (dependent upon usual amount of sleep needed)
- staying awake 5-50 mins, then sleep again
- when waking up from that, no moving or opening eyes; instead performing a mental test if one is in lucid dream (supposedly by imagining seeing oneself in a mirror); otherwise
- performing the following "mental techniques" while not performing any physical movement (except eyes, but which are remain closed):
- "imagine to"/do roll out of your body
- "imagine to"/do get up in your bed
- "imagine to"/do fly up
- "imagine to"/do sink into your materess
with each technique being attempted for 3-5 secs and then the next is used and starting with the first again until either
a special sensation/feeling happens (e.g. sensation of "actually flying"), then "intensify" that sensation
all techniques have been done without success 4 times; then fall asleep again to retry next awakening or - if sleep no longer possible - try again next time sleeping


This supposedly increases the likelihood of having a lucid dream.

On the other hand, as i wrote above, if i read the above technique/procedure in a book "How to brainwash myself into beliving crazy things" i would not be suprised - remember, supposedly one should do the above potentially for weeks or months every night/morning.

Any idea, whether and which what negative side effects could be possible and how likely they are?

 

[The Atheist]

This would get a little complicated. Do you know anything about the inhibition system in the brain? Malfunctions in this system can cause things like Tourette syndrome. Is someone now going to claim that Tourette syndrome or maybe Parkinson's disease are a way to unlock hidden potential and increase creativity?

Are you going to claim that lucid dreaming can lead to those syndromes?

If not, why bring them up in fashion?

Do you have evidence of harm from lucid dreaming?

Whether or not it's "normal" isn't hell of a relevant on its own. Being able to roll your tongue backwards isn't normal, but it's fairly harmless.

 

[Manopolus]

I've actually had multiple occasions where I was dreaming and realized it was a dream. However, every time all I want to do when I notice it is wake up. Controlling the dream in some way never crosses my mind. There have been a few cases where waking up was difficult though -- weirdly, in some cases I'd even "wake up" into another dream that was believable as a waking experience and fall into a weird repeating pattern of dreaming about trying to wake up and failing. It can actually get quite nightmarish.

I don't tend to remember my dreams much any more, but these things happened a lot when I was younger.

Anyway, I'd say the big question here is what benefit does your friend expect from the process? I'm guessing it's woo if there's a mental block involved. Generally, if the process requires unquestioning belief, it's connected to semi-religious woo. It's the oldest trick in the book.

 

[Carn]

Anyway, I'd say the big question here is what benefit does your friend expect from the process?

"Training to speak a language while dreaming.

Influence hormon levels to improve effectiveness of muscle build-up.

For an addict, removing the urge to take the drug by dreaming to take it.

Drastically improved satisfaction with one's live."

(He isn't an addict, he just is convinced it would work against addiction.)

 

[zooterkin]

"Training to speak a language while dreaming.

Influence hormon levels to improve effectiveness of muscle build-up.

For an addict, removing the urge to take the drug by dreaming to take it.

Drastically improved satisfaction with one's live."

(He isn't an addict, he just is convinced it would work against addiction.)

Yes, I'd guess most of those are bollocks. There is a lot of woo associated with lucid dreaming, as I said before. However, there are some things you can use it for, including the entertainment value. For me, the hassle of keeping a dream diary, working out when to set an alarm to interrupt dreams, and getting into a routine of checking my watch or looking at my nose to determine if I'm awake or dreaming are just too big a hurdle right now. I value the sleep I do get too much to try messing with it right now. Maybe when I retire I'll have the time and inclination to try it out.

 

[William Parcher]

getting into a routine of checking my watch or looking at my nose to determine if I'm awake or dreaming

Good luck with that. You can dream that you are looking at your watch/clock or your nose, and then after you actually wake up you think that you did those things while awake.

Then there is another wildcard. Dreaming that you are engaged in a lucid dream when you actually are not.

 

[zooterkin]

Good luck with that. You can dream that you are looking at your watch/clock or your nose, and then after you actually wake up you think that you did those things while awake.

Well, I've left out some of the details. Supposedly watches and clocks in dreams don't show a sensible time, and you can recognise this, with practice; the same with any reading material. Similarly, you can't see your nose in dreams, or so rarely that if you notice this, then you're dreaming. The point is that there are cues that you can use to recognise that you're dreaming, if you get into the habit of checking them when you're awake too; the next trick is to not wake up when you realise this, and then take control of the dream.

 

[William Parcher]

Well, I've left out some of the details. Supposedly watches and clocks in dreams don't show a sensible time, and you can recognise this, with practice; the same with any reading material. Similarly, you can't see your nose in dreams, or so rarely that if you notice this, then you're dreaming. The point is that there are cues that you can use to recognise that you're dreaming, if you get into the habit of checking them when you're awake too; the next trick is to not wake up when you realise this, and then take control of the dream.

Good luck with that. Your dreams can create a "sensible time" on any clock or watch and they can show you your nose as well. The more that you think about and rehearse these "clues" when you are awake the more likely they are to show up in your dreams. But there is no rule that says these things will show up as honest players, so to speak.

Your dream-state mind has the ability to both show you a clock and to also create a personal judgement about that clock. There is no third party present to tell you that you are right or wrong about your dream and its content.

 

[zooterkin]

Good luck with that. Your dreams can create a "sensible time" on any clock or watch and they can show you your nose as well. The more that you think about and rehearse these "clues" when you are awake the more likely they are to show up in your dreams. But there is no rule that says these things will show up as honest players, so to speak.

These things are chosen because they are pretty common features of dreams. They certainly work for some people. What do you base your objections on?

 

[William Parcher]

What do you base your objections on?

The ability of dreams and the subconscious mind to fool you into thinking that you know something that you do not.

 

[ehcks]

Good luck with that. You can dream that you are looking at your watch/clock or your nose, and then after you actually wake up you think that you did those things while awake.

Then there is another wildcard. Dreaming that you are engaged in a lucid dream when you actually are not.

That was my problem for a while. I got nightmares, and to fight them, I taught myself to open a book near my bed. I couldn't read in dreams, so if it was gibberish, I'd know it wasn't real. Then my dream self became literate just to screw with me.

 

[zooterkin]

The ability of dreams and the subconscious mind to fool you into thinking that you know something that you do not.

But they don't do it constantly, and you, or at least some people, can learn to tell when they are dreaming.

Do you believe that at least some people have learnt to have lucid dreams pretty much at will, by using these techniques?

 

[Darat]

I've actually had multiple occasions where I was dreaming and realized it was a dream. However, every time all I want to do when I notice it is wake up. Controlling the dream in some way never crosses my mind. There have been a few cases where waking up was difficult though -- weirdly, in some cases I'd even "wake up" into another dream that was believable as a waking experience and fall into a weird repeating pattern of dreaming about trying to wake up and failing. It can actually get quite nightmarish.

I don't tend to remember my dreams much any more, but these things happened a lot when I was younger.

Anyway, I'd say the big question here is what benefit does your friend expect from the process? I'm guessing it's woo if there's a mental block involved. Generally, if the process requires unquestioning belief, it's connected to semi-religious woo. It's the oldest trick in the book.

That is pretty much sleep paralysis.

 

[Aridas]

I have a relative who is absolutely convinced that lucid dreaming is a so to say "must have".

Why? What makes it a "must have?"

Usually, he has a very critical approach to anything to such an extent that it borders on the absurd. Therefore, i was rather irritated when he told my about getting into lucid dreaming and me raising sceptical questions, he effectively said he abondened all scepticism in this regard and will adamantly resist any approach of mine to plant skeptical thoughts in his mind regarding lucid dreaming.

His reasoning effectively was that a bunch of "experts" or experts (can't decide upon whether they are or not) convinced him it works, but only if one has no mental barriers against it and that these mental barriers arise especially due to scepticism in respect to what these experts teach about lucid dreaming.

Lucid dreaming is a real phenomena, at last check, so... meh? I cannot really comment on the mental barriers claim much, though, as that does just seem to be off in "Huh? Why would that even come into the picture?" territory. I've done it, either way, and it was nice. I stopped going out of my way to do it, though, because I don't really feel the desire to control my dreams. Admittedly, the dreams I actually remember tend to be relatively pleasant and interesting, all the moreso when I'm going with the story, usually.

And he imagines all kind of advantages he would have from lucid dreaming, e.g. improved learning, more happiness and so on.
Furthermore, the info he showed me read to my eyes a bit like "How to brainwash myself" (though i am no expert in such mental manipulation; and maybe a little brainwashing is actually useful for lucid dreaming).

A little brainwashing? In the sense of intentionally changing how you think a little bit, which is something that one does all the time when learning how to deal with stimuli in a more desirable fashion, sure. The named advantages, though, are questionable. Improved learning? How, exactly? Forcefully turning the time when you're asleep into review time, perhaps? More happiness? That sounds rather superfluous to lucid dreaming, frankly, and also sounds dependent on the mindset in play. I have heard in the past, though, that lucid dreaming can make for a rather decent way to counter nightmares, which could be good for some people and makes sense, given how it works.

Of course, thats together a big huge red flag for ********.

A red flag for something that people can easily make up crap about? Yeah... that's something of a given when it comes to anything a bit nebulous like this.

But problem is:
a) lucid dreaming does happen and can be trained to some extent
b) as it is purely happening in someone's mind, the thing about scepticism reducing success chances might be true; if i am convinced that i will fail at lucid dreaming, increase of failure chance does not seem unlikely

b is possible, I suppose? Still, the simplest way to lucid dream is probably to just get into a habit of occasionally and intentionally checking for good signs that you're in a dream, such as, for example, that when you try to read something more than a couple words, it will generally change what's said from attempt to read to attempt to read.

Hence, he calls me irrational, ridiculously sceptical and arrogant, to think i am in a position to question the experts he trust in and to sow doubt in his mind, reducing his success.

Positive is, that he is not going to pay thousands of bucks for some stupid training, but it still irritates me. Hence, i'd like to have some sceptical point of views regarding lucid dreaming or maybe regarding just some "experts" or experts in the field (maybe there are some snake oil peddlers doing buisiness there, but not all are snake oil peddlers).

And i noted, that some people here seem also to be fond of lucid dreaming, so maybe this is not a good place to look for sceptical information; but let's try.

I do admit to some fondness for lucid dreaming, myself, but... as noted before, I do not at all consider it particularly necessary as a skill.

So any guess to what extent snake oil peddlers do buisiness in the field of lucid dreaming literature/help/training/propagation?
How to spot them?

Dunno. And the first question to ask would be whether and how much they're charging.

Are there any negative side effects/problems from lucid dreaming in general?

This is my opinion of limited value on the subject, but... it's somewhat unlikely.

Are there any groups of people, who should be cautious regarding or avoid lucid dreaming altogether or some of the techniques suggested (e.g. below a certain age, above a certain age, heart problems, some mental problems, etc.)?

The only groups with any kind of risk would probably be a group with serious mental issues or distinct difficulty distinguishing between dream and reality anyways.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

What if this whole thread is nothing but a dream?

 

[Modified]

Well, I've left out some of the details. Supposedly watches and clocks in dreams don't show a sensible time, and you can recognise this, with practice; the same with any reading material. Similarly, you can't see your nose in dreams, or so rarely that if you notice this, then you're dreaming. The point is that there are cues that you can use to recognise that you're dreaming, if you get into the habit of checking them when you're awake too; the next trick is to not wake up when you realise this, and then take control of the dream.

Usually in my dreams I won't even recognize that a cartoon werewolf is not an expected part of reality.