Sceptical view on lucid dreaming

[Carn]

I have a relative who is absolutely convinced that lucid dreaming is a so to say "must have".

Usually, he has a very critical approach to anything to such an extent that it borders on the absurd. Therefore, i was rather irritated when he told my about getting into lucid dreaming and me raising sceptical questions, he effectively said he abondened all scepticism in this regard and will adamantly resist any approach of mine to plant skeptical thoughts in his mind regarding lucid dreaming.

His reasoning effectively was that a bunch of "experts" or experts (can't decide upon whether they are or not) convinced him it works, but only if one has no mental barriers against it and that these mental barriers arise especially due to scepticism in respect to what these experts teach about lucid dreaming. And he imagines all kind of advantages he would have from lucid dreaming, e.g. improved learning, more happiness and so on.
Furthermore, the info he showed me read to my eyes a bit like "How to brainwash myself" (though i am no expert in such mental manipulation; and maybe a little brainwashing is actually useful for lucid dreaming).


Of course, thats together a big huge red flag for ********.


But problem is:
a) lucid dreaming does happen and can be trained to some extent
b) as it is purely happening in someone's mind, the thing about scepticism reducing success chances might be true; if i am convinced that i will fail at lucid dreaming, increase of failure chance does not seem unlikely


Hence, he calls me irrational, ridiculously sceptical and arrogant, to think i am in a position to question the experts he trust in and to sow doubt in his mind, reducing his success.

Positive is, that he is not going to pay thousands of bucks for some stupid training, but it still irritates me. Hence, i'd like to have some sceptical point of views regarding lucid dreaming or maybe regarding just some "experts" or experts in the field (maybe there are some snake oil peddlers doing buisiness there, but not all are snake oil peddlers).

And i noted, that some people here seem also to be fond of lucid dreaming, so maybe this is not a good place to look for sceptical information; but let's try.

So any guess to what extent snake oil peddlers do buisiness in the field of lucid dreaming literature/help/training/propagation?
How to spot them?
Are there any serious people in the field having an evidence or at least semi-evidence-based approach?
Are there any negative side effects/problems from lucid dreaming in general?
Are there any groups of people, who should be cautious regarding or avoid lucid dreaming altogether or some of the techniques suggested (e.g. below a certain age, above a certain age, heart problems, some mental problems, etc.)?
If there is actually good stuff in the field of lucid dreaming, how to identify it?

Feel free to answer only some questions, if you want, or just write in general without answering the questions, they are just an inspiration what i am looking for.

Thanks for any input.

Here a link to one of "experts" homepage, though in german:
http://www.luzides-träumen.com/

 

[bruto]

Has this person suggested what the benefit of lucid dreaming might be? I have seen a fair amount of evidence that it's possible, and had a few episodes that could be considered lucid dreams, but not a very convincing "so what?"

I can see if you're subject to bad dreams, it would be a good thing to cultivate, but beyond that, most of the benefits I've seen are things like how cool it is to fly, and have sex with your chosen superstar, basically dreaming with bells on.

 

[Molinaro]

It never occurred to me that there was any doubt as to lucid dreaming being a real thing or not. That's because as far back as I can remember that's the only way I dream. I always am aware of my dreams while I'm dreaming. It's as if I am both experiencing the dream and watching myself experience the dream. The one watching can jump in and take over to an extent.

I can't change what will happen, for the most part, but I can stop the the dream a rewind to an early point -- hoping for a different outcome when I let it continue. Or I can wake myself up. I wake myself up by saying a word out loud that when my ears hear it, it wakes me up.

I have a very strong urge to read in a dream. Any time a dream is going along and a book, or a menu, or a letter, or school exam is nearby I get excited. "Let's see if my dream put words on paper that make sense!" And I try very hard to get myself to read it in the dream. But, the dream always prevents me. As my eyes turn to the page, my vision will blurr and I can't read anything. I look away and my vision clears and then quickly look back to the page but right away, my vision blurs.

I then find myself thinking, "Aha.. got you! You can't come up with anything that makes sense here can you? Therefore this has to be a dream!"

Just a few days ago I had a dream where I was downtown in a parking lot and one of my drivers (I'm a dispatcher) was complaining that the reefer of his truck was infested with maggots. He showed it to me, then got in his car and drove away. I turned to the office coworker standing next to me began asking: "Why is his car downtown here in this lot for him to be able to drive away like that? How did his car get here if he got here by driving the truck and then calling us because he didn't want to continue? We didn't drive it here. Wait.. how did we get here? And how are we getting back to the office?" Now the coworker is walking away from me not saying anything and I'm following and continuing to question them: "You can't answer can you? I know why you can't answer. Because this is a dream and this stupid dream didn't think things through did it?"

And then I woke myself up because the dream was too stupid. Anyway, I tend to attack my dreams like that when they don't make sense and try and question anyone around me about any part of it that doesn't make sense.

 

[zooterkin]

I've not heard anything negative about lucid dreaming; most of what I know I learnt from a Skeptics in the Pub talk by Peter Harrison, who also writes under the name Pedro on lucid dreaming forums.

There is some confusion about what lucid dreaming is; there are some "woo" associations with out of body experiences or travelling the astral plane, but that's just nonsense. Lucid dreaming is just dreaming while being aware that you are doing so, and directing those dreams. Some people can do it naturally; in fact, IIRC, most children can do it, but lose the ability as they grow up.

There are techniques you can use to improve your ability to dream lucidly, but I never got around to trying it myself.

Peter Harrison uses lucid dreaming to help design magic tricks, visualising how they look from different parts of the auditorium.

 

[marplots]

(good descriptions snipped for space)

Anyway, I tend to attack my dreams like that when they don't make sense and try and question anyone around me about any part of it that doesn't make sense.

I don't lucid dream, but that's pretty much my approach to reality.

 

[casebro]

The real question is "does it accomplish whatever it is supposed to?"

So, what are the supposed benefits? Better hair? Higher IQ? Scoring with the chicks?

 

[ehcks]

The real question is "does it accomplish whatever it is supposed to?"

So, what are the supposed benefits? Better hair? Higher IQ? Scoring with the chicks?

Entertainment. Being able to control your dreams is fun. It's like taking your daydreams and living them through your subconscious.

Some nights I'm a superhero saving damsels in distress. Some nights I'm a character in a video game. I can do whatever I want. So what if it's not real. Movies aren't real either, and people actually pay for those.

 

[Trebuchet]

It never occurred to me that there was any doubt as to lucid dreaming being a real thing or not. That's because as far back as I can remember that's the only way I dream. I always am aware of my dreams while I'm dreaming. It's as if I am both experiencing the dream and watching myself experience the dream. The one watching can jump in and take over to an extent.

That's pretty much me. My efforts to take control pretty much amount to "It's just a dream, WAKE UP" if it's an unpleasant one or "Don't wake up" if it's an erotic one. Otherwise, it's like TV or a movie: I find myself giving criticism as it goes along.

 

[macdoc]

Entertainment. Being able to control your dreams is fun. It's like taking your daydreams and living them through your subconscious.

Some nights I'm a superhero saving damsels in distress. Some nights I'm a character in a video game. I can do whatever I want. So what if it's not real. Movies aren't real either, and people actually pay for those.

yup

somewhat trainable source of entertainment

nothing mysterious about it

i found i can guide my level of energy the next day by pre sleep visuals -

i learned the value when as a kid i cured my claustrophobia by purposely invoking the dream/terror and then "pushing back"

iniitially had some failures and some scare episodes as the dream fear took over my lucid attempts

after while could invoke and prevent with ease,

Just a learned skill ....

OP .to be skeptical you need to be informed....you are not.
You are merely ill-informed and apparently without personal experience.

There is lots of good science on lucid dreaming and of course like any other thing...it's open to snake oil nonsense.

Study Objectives:

The goal of the study was to seek physiological correlates of lucid dreaming. Lucid dreaming is a dissociated state with aspects of waking and dreaming combined in a way so as to suggest a specific alteration in brain physiology for which we now present preliminary but intriguing evidence. We show that the unusual combination of hallucinatory dream activity and wake-like reflective awareness and agentive control experienced in lucid dreams is paralleled by significant changes in electrophysiology.

Design:

19-channel EEG was recorded on up to 5 nights for each participant. Lucid episodes occurred as a result of pre-sleep autosuggestion.

Setting:

Sleep laboratory of the Neurological Clinic, Frankfurt University.

Participants:

Six student volunteers who had been trained to become lucid and to signal lucidity through a pattern of horizontal eye movements.

Measurements and Results:

Results show lucid dreaming to have REM-like power in frequency bands δ and θ, and higher-than-REM activity in the γ band, the between-states-difference peaking around 40 Hz. Power in the 40 Hz band is strongest in the frontal and frontolateral region. Overall coherence levels are similar in waking and lucid dreaming and significantly higher than in REM sleep, throughout the entire frequency spectrum analyzed. Regarding specific frequency bands, waking is characterized by high coherence in α, and lucid dreaming by increased δ and θ band coherence. In lucid dreaming, coherence is largest in frontolateral and frontal areas.

Conclusions:

Our data show that lucid dreaming constitutes a hybrid state of consciousness with definable and measurable differences from waking and from REM sleep, particularly in frontal areas.
Citation:

Voss U; Holzmann R; Tuin I; Hobson A. Lucid dreaming: a state of consciousness with features of both waking and non-lucid dreaming. SLEEP 2009;32(9):1191-1200.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2737577/

http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/si91ld.html

http://www.cbc.ca/homestretch/episode/2014/05/14/lucid-dreaming/

http://www.imagiscape.ca/blog/arts/imagination/lucid-dreaming-adventures-in-consciousness


Our data show that lucid dreaming constitutes a hybrid state of consciousness with definable and measurable differences from waking and from REM sleep, particularly in frontal areas. ....exactly...

 

[casebro]

I had enough entertainment last night without lucid dreaming. I had a bout of sleep paralysis. Funny thing was the tremor/fasiculation was a-twitching in one leg.

 

[Doghouse Reilly]

Lucid dreaming is great. What exactly are you skeptical about, OP? Can you be specific?

ETA: Sorry, I see you asked a bunch of specific questions. Stephen LaBerge, who did PhD research at Standford, is an excellent source of information regarding the scientific aspects of lucid dreaming and dreaming in general. He takes a non-woo approach. I received some training from him and it was very beneficial.

 

[Carn]

The real question is "does it accomplish whatever it is supposed to?"

So, what are the supposed benefits? Better hair? Higher IQ? Scoring with the chicks?

Training to speak a language while dreaming.

Influence hormon levels to improve effectiveness of muscle build-up.

For an addict, removing the urge to take the drug by dreaming to take it.

Drastically improved satisfaction with one's live.


Thats the things i can name, but i guess there is a lot more.

The question is not whether something of that stuff is probably nonesense.


The question is more what does that mean for the rest of information from sources claiming such things, whether this means it might be problematic to rely on them regarding lucid dreaming in general (If one believes lucid dreaming can help learning languages, tries it a few times, fails and moves on, nothing happens; but thats not the case if the rest your source suggests, is as bogus).


It could be, that its a bit into the out of body stuff, cause the techniques i read sounded a bit like trying to prepare/fool the mind to have "out-of-body experiences".

 

[Vermonter]

Purely anecdotal, but I used lucid dreaming in college to do programming assignments in my sleep. I'd go to bed with the problem in mind (say, for some programming issue that I hadn't been able to solve that day) and within the dream I'd emulate a programming environment. Wake up, and I had the solution in mind. Plugged it into the real compiler, at it worked.

After my dad died suddenly I was having issues coping with the loss, so for a while I would set up a "virtual dad" in my dreams and ask "him" for advice. It was more or less just emulating what he might say based on what I knew about him and his personality, and it helped me get through some of the tougher times. Since then the lucid emulation has been retired.

Generally I can read in dreams, so that's not a great test to see if I'm dreaming or not. Though if I see my dad in the dream I can usually tell that I'm dreaming.

Typically I can tell if I'm about to wake up / disrupt the dream if things start glitching out. I'll pick something up and it snaps back into place. Things bounce in strange ways and act like they're on springs. I can never find what I'm looking for. Everything starts looking like really bad wax sculptures and eerily artificial. Pretty cool stuff, really. I'm using it as a plot device in one of my films. It's a powerful tool and a great source of entertainment. As a result I rarely suffer from nightmares because I can override with something else.

 

[The Atheist]

So any guess to what extent snake oil peddlers do buisiness in the field of lucid dreaming literature/help/training/propagation?
How to spot them?
Are there any serious people in the field having an evidence or at least semi-evidence-based approach?
Are there any negative side effects/problems from lucid dreaming in general?
Are there any groups of people, who should be cautious regarding or avoid lucid dreaming altogether or some of the techniques suggested (e.g. below a certain age, above a certain age, heart problems, some mental problems, etc.)?
If there is actually good stuff in the field of lucid dreaming, how to identify it?

Ok, from personal experience and study, I think it's fairly well established as harmless, enjoyable, and probably refreshing.

There are no known risks and definitely no known benefits. I've spoken to lots of lucid dreamers and they've smart and stupid, fat and thin, energetic and lazy - just like everyone else.

Anyone can do it. My kids have been practising from young ages.

I can see if you're subject to bad dreams, it would be a good thing to cultivate,....

That's a good point - you can't have a nightmare while you're dreaming lucidly; your brain will always be able to keep a step ahead of itself.

Movies aren't real either, and people actually pay for those.

You can also encourage dreams to have lucidly by imbibing certain substances before sleeping.

Training to speak a language while dreaming.

Influence hormon levels to improve effectiveness of muscle build-up.

For an addict, removing the urge to take the drug by dreaming to take it.

Drastically improved satisfaction with one's live.

You'd need some heavyweight evidence for any of those. They are just dreams.

It could be, that its a bit into the out of body stuff, cause the techniques i read sounded a bit like trying to prepare/fool the mind to have "out-of-body experiences".

Jeuss H Christ, I've well and truly lost count of the number of people I've tried to explain that they weren't travelling astrally but just dreaming.

"But I could control it!"

That's the whole point...

 

[The Atheist]

Oh yeah, one more thing you could do is search for old threads on the subject - I know there have been a few because I've participated in some.

Brian Jackson started a good one many years ago. Pretty sure he isn't active any more, dammit. Top man, he was.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

Oh yeah, one more thing you could do is search for old threads on the subject - I know there have been a few because I've participated in some.

Brian Jackson started a good one many years ago. Pretty sure he isn't active any more, dammit. Top man, he was.

Any good online sources on how to do this? I'd love to try but don't know what is real or BS.

 

[The Atheist]

Use the "advanced search" function and the Google search of the forum option.

Search for "lucid dream" with speech marks and quite a few threads pop up. Work your way through them - if there's any reliable information, it's likely to be in one of them.

 

[macdoc]

and definitely no known benefits.

You have that incorrect. There are a variety of general ( fun, ) and specific benefits.....( in my cases curing my claustrophobia by inducing the nifgtmare invoking dream then pshing back until it no longer was fear invoking ).
As well as setting the stage for next day.

Edgar Allen Poe was an advocate and claimed his most imaginative and vivid stories were written in the lucid dream state as is defined above.

Like any skill it can be developed and used as you see fit ....I concur no downides aside from a potential slap aside the head from a teacher for "day dreaming".

 

[barehl]

This is probably a waste of time. Sleep walking, sleep paralysis, and lucid dreaming are caused by brain function errors. None of these open up any special window on creativity or untapped potential. None of these enhance your mind, memory, or ability to learn in any way. If all of your dreaming was lucid then it would actually interfere with the normal function of your brain. However, what you describe is only during the last dream stage so losing that time is not going to have much effect on brain function.

 

[macdoc]

Sure - whatever ...go lay down your briliant handed down wisdom elsewhere.
The idea is in a science forum ...put up or shut up.

Our data show that lucid dreaming constitutes a hybrid state of consciousness with definable and measurable differences from waking and from REM sleep, particularly in frontal areas.

Citation:

Voss U; Holzmann R; Tuin I; Hobson A. Lucid dreaming: a state of consciousness with features of both waking and non-lucid dreaming. SLEEP 2009;32(9):1191-1200.

I find it useful, Poe found it useful, many others find it useful or just plain fun ....it has supporting literature in the science community. I could care less what your unsupported opinion is of something you clearly know nothing about. It's not skepticism...it's just everyday ignorance.