Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions

You're saying that, but you're not actually engaging with the arguments (which everyone else who has ever looked at the properly find persuasive) that the idea of an instrumental good independent of any intrinsic good is self-contradictory and nonsensical.

You are instead proposing some kind of incoherent philosophy where A is good because it brings about B, and B is good because it brings about C, and C is good because it brings about D, and so on until you either retreat into circularity by saying N is good because it brings about A, or an infinite regress where it's turtles all the way down.

Harris doesn't appear to find it persuasive. Pinker doesn't appear to find it persuasive. Neither do I. Perhaps none of us are True Scotsman?

Look, no matter how you slice it, these notions of "intrinsic good" and "instrumental good" are hopeless abstractions. They're the moral equivalent of the cosmic ether. The reality is, we can do without them and be none the worse off, as I have demonstrated.

The fact that you continue to cling to them does not make them any less redundant, any less useless. The fact is, you simply refuse to engage, in any way, the approach to morality which dispenses with them. Instead, you simply continue to insist, without any proof or even evidence, that they must somehow be indispensible.

All this A B C D stuff that you're talking about here only makes sense if you first buy into an abstract notion of "good" floating out in imaginary space somewhere. That is, if you first choose to believe in some unanchored notion of Platonic "good", which is entirely unreal.

Once you drop that imaginary baggage and focus instead on what is demonstrably real -- that is, physics and biology -- all this obsession with some idealistic notion of "good" (intrinsic or instrumental) falls by the wayside.

Fact is, we don't make our moral decisions based on any such notions of abstract "good". "Good" = Tooth Fairy.
 
Harris doesn't appear to find it persuasive. Pinker doesn't appear to find it persuasive. Neither do I. Perhaps none of us are True Scotsman?

Look, no matter how you slice it, these notions of "intrinsic good" and "instrumental good" are hopeless abstractions. They're the moral equivalent of the cosmic ether. The reality is, we can do without them and be none the worse off, as I have demonstrated.

No, you cannot. They exhaust the potential sources of good in the universe. If you are claiming that X is good, you are claiming that it is an instrumental good, claiming that it is an intrinsic good, or just plain confused.

The fact that you continue to cling to them does not make them any less redundant, any less useless. The fact is, you simply refuse to engage, in any way, the approach to morality which dispenses with them. Instead, you simply continue to insist, without any proof or even evidence, that they must somehow be indispensible.

All this A B C D stuff that you're talking about here only makes sense if you first buy into an abstract notion of "good" floating out in imaginary space somewhere. That is, if you first choose to believe in some unanchored notion of Platonic "good", which is entirely unreal.

Stop attributing this load of utter garbage me. I have told you as clearly as possible that you are wrong in claiming that I believe any such thing, and exactly why you are wrong. If you cannot currently understand why intellectual honesty is a virtue in discussions like these then I strongly suggest you go on one of your walks and do not come back until you have figured it out.

I realise that you really, really want "intrinsic good" to be a term that points to some some airy-fairy, unreal concept, because otherwise you've been talking nonsense for pages despite a great deal of patient correction on that point. However I think you should get over it and realise that it's not, it never has been, and that throwing a tantrum over it is not constructive.

"Good" is a value judgment made by humans. It is a cognitive category we put things in. If we are rational, we put things in that category for a reason: either because it is good in and of itself, or because it brings about a good.

You have admitted freely that you put things in this category. If you are rational, you do so on a basis other than circular arguments or a nonsensical infinite regress.
 
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No, you cannot. They exhaust the potential sources of good in the universe. If you are claiming that X is good, you are claiming that it is an instrumental good, claiming that it is an intrinsic good, or just plain confused.

Unless, of course, you simply abandon this useless and redundant abstraction of "good", just as we have managed to jettison the useless and redundant notion of the cosmic ether.

Once you do that, of course, you can get on with dealing with morality as a function of our biology.

But until you do, you'll be struggling with the ether forever.
 
I realise that you really, really want "intrinsic good" to be a term that points to some some airy-fairy, unreal concept, because otherwise you've been talking nonsense for pages despite a great deal of patient correction on that point. However I think you should get over it and realise that it's not, it never has been, and that throwing a tantrum over it is not constructive.

"Good" is a value judgment made by humans. It is a cognitive category we put things in. If we are rational, we put things in that category for a reason: either because it is good in and of itself, or because it brings about a good.

You have admitted freely that you put things in this category. If you are rational, you do so on a basis other than circular arguments or a nonsensical infinite regress.

Who says we're rational?

Who says we actually use such alleged categories?

I think you misunderstand human nature.
 
Unless, of course, you simply abandon this useless and redundant abstraction of "good", just as we have managed to jettison the useless and redundant notion of the cosmic ether.

Once you do that, of course, you can get on with dealing with morality as a function of our biology.

But until you do, you'll be struggling with the ether forever.

Do you think that any acts, traits or outcomes are preferable to others? Then you just made a value judgment, which must be based on some kind of idea that those acts, traits or outcomes are preferable just because they are, or are preferable because they lead to some other act/trait/outcome you prefer.
 
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I don't see him as thinking outside the box at all, he's just making a very old philosophical error which has been made probably millions of times before. It's not new, clever or notably original.
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This is not a paradigm shift, it's the same boring wallowing in the naturalistic fallacy. Just because something is normal or natural does not entail that it is moral.
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So help me out here. If not a naturalistic version of morality, then what? Do you propose some magical pondering? Philosophers get it and biologists don't?

And how do you fit into the philosopher's version of reality the fact one can observe moral behaviors in non-human mammals? Are chimpanzees philosophizing when they sabotage another'e reward they view as unfair?
 
There you go.

It's a matter of balancing all of those concerns in a way that's actually informed, instead of consulting the ancient book or the magic oracle.

That's all it really is.

Some here are attempting to misrepresent SH's argument as if he were claiming that science will actually hand us the answers, but he explicitly dismisses this notion.

Rather, what he's saying is that moral decisions informed by science -- answers to moral questions and dilemmas arrived at with the help of science -- are objectively better than those which are not informed by science (such as those arrived at by using the methods of the Taliban).

In other words, the choice of a science-based morality is not arbitrary. It is, in fact, superior.

Hang on a minute, didn't we sort this out on page 4, or are you referring to a different lecture given by Sam Harris?

Remember Sam Harris says at the beginning, laying his argument out:

'It's generally understood that questions of morality, questions of good and evil, of right and wrong, are questions about which science officially has no opinion... it is thought that science can help us get what we value, but it can never tell us what we ought to value... most people here think that science will never answer the most important questions of human life, questions like what is worth living for, what is worth dying for, what constitutes a good life.
I'm going to argue that this is an illusion, the seperation between science and human values is an illusion...'

In other words, he explicitly promotes the notion that science will hand us the answers. He says, 'it is thought that science can help us get what we value, but it can never tell us what we ought to value'. Is this not what the disagreement between you and I has been about? If Sam Harris didn't mean that his lecture was supposed to demonstrate that science can tell us what we ought to value, (i.e. give us the answers) then why does he say this explicitly?

Let us be clear:

1. Everyone is in agreement with the idea that we should get the best information to inform our decisions. This has been said repeatedly. it is nothing new. Can we stop going round in circles?

I disagree with Sam Harris on this:

2. Science can tell us what we ought to value. To unpack this statement, I'm again going to refer to what Harris actually says:

'...most people here think that science will never answer the most important questions of human life, questions like what is worth living for, what is worth dying for, what constitutes a good life.'

Any lingering doubts that Sam Harris thinks science will give us the answers? Do you support this, or are you in agreement with me, that Harris is wrong in this instance?
 
So help me out here. If not a naturalistic version of morality, then what? Do you propose some magical pondering? Philosophers get it and biologists don't?

There is no magic here. That's just a straw man you and Piggy have made up, because you are trying really hard to position yourselves as being more scientific that everyone else. The fact is that I'm as grounded in the rationalist, scientific world-view as anyone else here. However yes, you are quite right here that there is a philosophical point to be gotten, philosophers get it, and you and Piggy don't.

Morality is an opinion. It is a value judgment, a subjective point of view that holds some outcomes, or acts, or people, or whatever as being preferable to others. Moral claims ("ought statements") are not true or false, nor can they be.

Scientific statements ("is statements") are true or false. They are a different category of claim entirely.

Moral claims are arrived at by some combination of "is" statements and "ought" statements. You need both, but you also need to keep the two distinct in your mind.

Piggy doesn't grasp this yet: He is still incapable of disentangling his "ought" statements from his "is" statements, and as far as he's concerned he doesn't need to learn to do that because he knows everything there is to know already from reading pop science books and watching Harris on youtube.

And how do you fit into the philosopher's version of reality the fact one can observe moral behaviors in non-human mammals? Are chimpanzees philosophizing when they sabotage another'e reward they view as unfair?

The fact that you call it moral is a value judgment you make about the facts of their behaviour. Arguably chimpanzees are making some such value judgments - it seems fairly likely to me. I doubt they engage in discursive thought about the topic with a view to developing consistent or useful systems for analysing such judgments, but then again neither does Piggy and that doesn't make him immoral.

I find the fact that you are even advancing the idea that you have to be a philosopher to act morally very curious... what could you possibly have read that gave you such a strange idea? Piggy and the chimps could both be seen to act morally even though neither appears to be capable of philosophy.
 
Piggy:

How do we move from 'what is' to 'what ought to be', without expressing a moral value that is not scientifically decidable?
 
Thanks for the elaboration; while I am familiar with some of that terminology, it's good to be on the same page.

You posit that a utilitarian philosophy must be universal, maximalist, and consequentialist. I might quibble at certain aspects of the definition but for the sake of argument I'll accept this.

Given this, I would claim that Harris's philosophy, at least to the extent it's expounded in the video, does not fit the first two criteria, and barely fits the third.

Harris is quite explicit at one point that he does not view all moral entities as equal--he believes that the reason we care about entities in a moral sense is because certain creatures are exposed to a "greater range of potential happiness and suffering". There is not a simple threshold where some creatures are moral and some are not; they can be placed on a gradient. This is of course consistent with ordinary common sense, where a person might be willing to eat an animal but not torture it.

Harris is also explicit about not being maximalist. Starting at about 5:10, he talks about a "moral landscape", and is clear that not all areas of the landscape are accessible, either through science or other means. A while later he does speak a bit about finding maxima on the landscape, but given his examples (such as food vs. poison) it's clear that he's not talking about absolute global maxima but rather ones that are merely similar in height.

As for consequentialism, it's not clear to me from the video what his stance is. Obviously, using science implies a data-driven approach that does seem likely to be focused on outcomes. But any complete moral framework must necessarily include a practical decision mechanism, and it's clear that the rule-systems we come up with (maxims, rights, laws, etc.) act as a kind of computational shortcut. Harris almost certainly knows this, and I'd suspect would agree that some rules can be quite useful even if they occasionally lead to undesirable outcomes.

It's a specific kind of consistent value judgment, though. Kant would have you make consistent value judgments about which acts were right and which were wrong, and would have you do right acts and eschew wrong acts. That's consistent but he quite firmly rejects all consequentialist thinking - Kant is consistent, in fact, in holding that concern with outcomes is one of the things that we should not let distract us from what he saw as real morality.

Again, this is just semantic quibbling on my part, but I would says that a Kantian is merely a certain kind of consequentialist. All acts must necessarily have an immediate outcome, and a philosophy which operates on acts can be equivalently rephrased to act on immediate outcomes. The difference with a conventional consequentialist is that the latter is likely to look at longer-term outcomes.

or if it is, it's a kooky corner case that is utilitarianism only in a fairly debatable semantic sense.

I'm happy to agree with that. But I don't think it's an entirely useless exercise. When pitting things against each other, such as moral systems, it can be helpful to put them in a common framework so one can evaluate their properties consistently.

I think any moral theory that needs a spreadsheet is definitely open to criticism on the grounds that it's of limited usefulness, and even relatively straightforward utilitarian systems (like the QALYs used to make health care decisions) are already somewhat open to criticism on such grounds.

Indeed. That was perhaps the first conclusion I came to in my college philosophy class. These systems can be fun in a theoretical sense but are impossible to use in a practical sense. Occasionally I play around with moral systems that take time and computation into account, but it's a hard problem.

I hope I answered this satisfactorily earlier, but if I didn't I'm happy to take another try at it.

You did, and thanks again. I'd like to hear if you disagree with my classification of Harris's philosophy.

- Dr. Trintignant
 
<snip>

If science leads normal people to one sort of "ought", then it stands to reason that it will lead abnormal people to a quite different sort of "ought".

Where should the line be drawn between normal people and abnormal people?
 
Any lingering doubts that Sam Harris thinks science will give us the answers? Do you support this, or are you in agreement with me, that Harris is wrong in this instance?

I wonder why people get stuck in single sentences from a short lecture...after watching the lecture a couple of times, to me it seems obvious this is not a yes/no question to Harris.

I feel it would be more precise to say Harris argues science can help us in reaching a more clear view into our moral landscape both individually and collectively, thus making it easier to focus on the most relevant areas of human well-being (which I think he defines here, in a roundabout way, as the ultimate goal of moral development).

In other words, I think one of the points he's trying to get across is (ie. with his hinting towards the talk regarding gay peoples' rights), that science can, does and will help us in deciphering what actually are the most important factors in striving for the ever increasing well-being of our species.

All in all, I think it's useless to break a short lecture by a creative and intelligent man into separate phrases and try to find pros and cons from them. As with all of us, Harris' work is a whole. Putting this one small lecture into the framework with the rest of his public work may serve to enlighten the subject (from his POV) far more. At least so I feel.

Have a good one, ya'll!
 
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Hang on a minute, didn't we sort this out on page 4, or are you referring to a different lecture given by Sam Harris?

Remember Sam Harris says at the beginning, laying his argument out:

'It's generally understood that questions of morality, questions of good and evil, of right and wrong, are questions about which science officially has no opinion... it is thought that science can help us get what we value, but it can never tell us what we ought to value... most people here think that science will never answer the most important questions of human life, questions like what is worth living for, what is worth dying for, what constitutes a good life.
I'm going to argue that this is an illusion, the seperation between science and human values is an illusion...'

In other words, he explicitly promotes the notion that science will hand us the answers. He says, 'it is thought that science can help us get what we value, but it can never tell us what we ought to value'. Is this not what the disagreement between you and I has been about? If Sam Harris didn't mean that his lecture was supposed to demonstrate that science can tell us what we ought to value, (i.e. give us the answers) then why does he say this explicitly?

Let us be clear:

1. Everyone is in agreement with the idea that we should get the best information to inform our decisions. This has been said repeatedly. it is nothing new. Can we stop going round in circles?

I disagree with Sam Harris on this:

2. Science can tell us what we ought to value. To unpack this statement, I'm again going to refer to what Harris actually says:

'...most people here think that science will never answer the most important questions of human life, questions like what is worth living for, what is worth dying for, what constitutes a good life.'

Any lingering doubts that Sam Harris thinks science will give us the answers?

Yes. And thank you for laying it out like this, as it seems that his statements can be understood in at least two different ways, and I think you have picked an understanding which was not Harris' intention. He tells us later in the lecture, by the use of specific examples, that he is not saying what you have just described. But perhaps more importantly, to put that interpretation on his statements opens him to criticisms that are fairly naive - that is, it requires relatively little sophisticated knowledge in the field of philosophy to recognize the validity of these criticisms, and one can safely ignore several centuries of progression in this discourse and refer back to Hume in order to invalidate Harris' statements. Or as Kevin Lowe put it, "people smarter than you have been discussing these exact issues for much longer than you have been alive." If I were to seriously consider this interpretation you have put forward, I think it is more likely I had the wrong end of the stick than Harris had somehow managed to forget his training and experience or fail to invest any effort in understanding the progression of this discussion prior to choosing to write a book on the topic.

"It is thought that science can help us get what we value, but it can never tell us what we ought to value...I'm going to argue that this is an illusion."

Now, you and others suggest that he is answering whether or not science can tell us what we ought to value by looking at what is valued (and that he is answering in the affirmative). My understanding of this instead is that he is essentially arguing that this is not a well-formed statement. And this explains Kevin Lowe's criticism that he never does get around to explaining how one gets from an 'is' to an 'ought'. It's because that is not what he is arguing. Instead, he shows (in a necessarily abbreviated fashion for an 18 minute talk) that if you unpack the assumptions hidden within that statement, it is an illusion that the statement is meaningful.

Ivor the Engineer provided examples of the application of this illusion to science, in post 253. It is similar to other statements like "science cannot study the supernatural", which also become meaningless once you pull aside the veil of illusion.

Now, I realize that most of you here are committed to your understanding of what Harris is saying. And not having read the book, it could be that I am wrong and that Harris really is stuck on sort of juvenile philosophical plane. Perhaps Kuko 4000 can say something in this regard.

Linda
 
And not having read the book, it could be that I am wrong and that Harris really is stuck on sort of juvenile philosophical plane. Perhaps Kuko 4000 can say something in this regard.

Linda


I hope to comment more later when I have more time on my hands.

In the meanwhile, this article from Harris (response to the early criticism, concerning especially the TED video) should help the conversation move along:

http://www.project-reason.org/newsfeed/item/moral_confusion_in_the_name_of_science3/

Sam Harris said:
When I speak of there being right and wrong answers to questions of morality, I am saying that there are facts about human and animal wellbeing that we can, in principle, know—simply because wellbeing (and states of consciousness altogether) must lawfully relate to states of the brain and to states of the world.

I’ve now had these basic objections hurled at me a thousand different ways—from YouTube comments that end by calling me “a Mossad agent” to scarcely more serious efforts by scientists like Sean Carroll which attempt to debunk my reasoning as circular or otherwise based on unwarranted assumptions. Many of my critics piously cite Hume’s is/ought distinction as though it were well known to be the last word on the subject of morality until the end of time. Indeed, Carroll appears to think that Hume’s lazy analysis of facts and values is so compelling that he elevates it to the status of mathematical truth:
 
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Do you think that any acts, traits or outcomes are preferable to others? Then you just made a value judgment, which must be based on some kind of idea that those acts, traits or outcomes are preferable just because they are, or are preferable because they lead to some other act/trait/outcome you prefer.

No, the reason we think some acts are preferable to others is simply because we are human beings, and not, say, stonefish.

If we were stonefish, we'd have no objection to being made to lie still all day and do nothing.

Seriously, Kevin, a biological approach simply does not require this step.
 
Hang on a minute, didn't we sort this out on page 4, or are you referring to a different lecture given by Sam Harris?

Remember Sam Harris says at the beginning, laying his argument out:

'It's generally understood that questions of morality, questions of good and evil, of right and wrong, are questions about which science officially has no opinion... it is thought that science can help us get what we value, but it can never tell us what we ought to value... most people here think that science will never answer the most important questions of human life, questions like what is worth living for, what is worth dying for, what constitutes a good life.
I'm going to argue that this is an illusion, the seperation between science and human values is an illusion...'

In other words, he explicitly promotes the notion that science will hand us the answers. He says, 'it is thought that science can help us get what we value, but it can never tell us what we ought to value'. Is this not what the disagreement between you and I has been about? If Sam Harris didn't mean that his lecture was supposed to demonstrate that science can tell us what we ought to value, (i.e. give us the answers) then why does he say this explicitly?

Let us be clear:

1. Everyone is in agreement with the idea that we should get the best information to inform our decisions. This has been said repeatedly. it is nothing new. Can we stop going round in circles?

I disagree with Sam Harris on this:

2. Science can tell us what we ought to value. To unpack this statement, I'm again going to refer to what Harris actually says:

'...most people here think that science will never answer the most important questions of human life, questions like what is worth living for, what is worth dying for, what constitutes a good life.'

Any lingering doubts that Sam Harris thinks science will give us the answers? Do you support this, or are you in agreement with me, that Harris is wrong in this instance?

Take a look at that quote again, and put it in the full context of the lecture, including his explicit statement that science will never give us the answer to questions such as "Should we bomb Iran?"

He's arguing against a wall of separation between science and values, and arguing that science can indeed lead us to answers to questions such as "What is a good life?"

And he's correct when he says that science can tell us what we ought to value. That's no different, actually, from saying that scientifically-informed decisions are superior to uninformed decisions, when applied to these questions.

I know that it sounds shocking to say that science can, for instance, tell us what is worth dying for.

But consider this....

Is it worth dying for the honor of an ancient scripture?

If you have a non-scientific view of the world, your answer could well be "Yes".

But if your world-view is informed by contemporary science, you come to a different conclusion.

So there you are. Science can indeed change our conclusions about what is worth dying for.
 
Where should the line be drawn between normal people and abnormal people?

I don't say there's a line. That would be like asking where the "line" is between our atmosphere and outer space. There's none to be found, but I still know that my house is in the atmosphere and a probe on its way to Mars is in outer space.

Similarly, Bundy is clearly abnormal.
 
Yes. And thank you for laying it out like this, as it seems that his statements can be understood in at least two different ways, and I think you have picked an understanding which was not Harris' intention. He tells us later in the lecture, by the use of specific examples, that he is not saying what you have just described. But perhaps more importantly, to put that interpretation on his statements opens him to criticisms that are fairly naive - that is, it requires relatively little sophisticated knowledge in the field of philosophy to recognize the validity of these criticisms, and one can safely ignore several centuries of progression in this discourse and refer back to Hume in order to invalidate Harris' statements.
Linda

The problem with this lecture is that Harris equivocates. He lays out argument A, and presents argument B. He is not clear. This is why supposedly intelligent folk seem to be arguing past each other on this thread.

Either Harris is extremely sloppy (he equivocates accidentally) or he equivocates intentionally and I tend to think the latter is more probable because he uses recognizable terms in moral philosophy to set out his case at the beginning. If I was to be uncharitable, I would say that this is an unfortunate case of 'the Emperor's New Clothes', although with a slight twist as this time a few other people, as well as the Emperor, have bought into the illusion.

Also, please point out where he is not saying what I have described. Yes he says that some moral questions cannot be answered by science, but he is never clear on why some questions can be and others can't be. There are basically two types of moral disagreement. Those where we disagree over facts and those where we disagree over values. Science can obviously help to decide the first point, but it cannot help to decide the second - what does Harris think? The subtitle of his book is, 'How Science Can Determine Human Values'. The man is hardly making immodest claims! If it is not his intention to show how science (what is) can determine oughts (what should be), then he should stop repeatedly alluding to it. Especially, as you kind of point out, he should know better.
 
Ha! I've just realised.

The subtitle of Harris' book, 'The Moral Landscape' is:

'How Science Can Determine Human Values'

Another wonderful piece of equivocation.

This can either mean:

a) Science can tell us what values humans have

or

b) Science can tell us what values humans should have

What is it? Is it a), which is easily defensible, yet nothing novel? or is it b), which is ground breaking and explosive yet not easily defensible? You can see how this happens to a person. Sorry to be cynical, but there you go.
 

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